AAD's not required but recommended.

[Beatnik 2]

Quote

Not all of us feel we need an AAD. For me it's the expense, and maintenance costs. I have 4 rigs, to equip them all would be on the order of $5000.

I hear you. I have over 20 rigs, getting close to 30, and I can't imagine what the costs would be for me to equip them with AAD's, especially since some would need some major mods.

I don't have one mainly because of the number of rigs I own. Having one or two rigs equipped that I don't jump that often, doesn't really add to anything.

I have been knocked out several times under canopy now and it has only happened with a canopy that has opened properly and very quickly. I have never had a mal open in such a way to knock me out. Under extreme conditions I know it is possible but haven't heard of a case that isn't in that range.

There are pros and cons to AADs but I don't believe having one makes you a safer skydiver. I also believe it is up to the individual to choose whether they want to use one or not.

Sure AADs save lives but there are plenty of people that save their life also without the use of an AAD. You should try and do everything you can to save your own life, no one should rely on an AAD solely.

[Chubba 0]

I don't even give a thought to the AAD, I just turn it on from habit and it never enters my mind.

I doesn't reassure me of anything and I don't actually ever think "well at least I got an AAD", I don't even remember my rig has one when I'm jumping.

So perhaps one day it might save me, but till then it's like it doesn't exist.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

And of course, if you forget to turn on the cypres and you die because of it...

Yep, it happened at Quincy during the WFFC. I forget which year, but it was a skysurfer.

Jerry Loftis, 1998. The first guy to skysurf in the US and first commercial skysurf board maker. Thousands of jumps. Took some time off to have a baby, wasn't too current on emergency procedures, had a malfunction with a high cutaway, never pulled the reserve handle.

Had a Cypres with new batteries that was turned off.

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

Tom Piras was killed after he turned his AAD off and was kicked in freefall. I don't know if it was at Quincy or not.

I remember reading about that. He was AFFing a student, IIRC. No it was not at Quincy, but that's all I can remember without doing a search. He supposedly woke up in freefall but too late to do his emergency pulls.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[popsjumper 2]

Daisy,
You know me, and I know you. Beside the point of being a student and being required to fly one, please, use the AAD. You can get used ones as NWFlyer mentioned. At your level and for what you are doing in the sky, an AAD is highly recommended. One more layer of safety for you.

Renting gear? Make sure that your rental has one before you jump it and
a) that you know how to turn it on and off,
b) what its parameters are,
c) when you may need to turn it off.

I would also recommend an RSL for you, too.

Yes, I'm an old worry-wart but I care.


Some of the personal reasons for NOT wanting an AAD, in addition to the ideas already listed:
1) Some people feel they need to get a perfect, stable belly-to-earth body position before the reserve comes out (although this idea is more commonly about RSLs)
2) Some have a major fear of a two-out situation and a possible entanglement caused by an AAD trigger.
3) Some simply have no idea why other than the "don't tell me what to do" mentality.
4) Some fear a faulty operation where the AAD operates outside of its parameters.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DanG 1]

Quote

And of course, if you forget to turn on the cypres and you die because of it...

He didn't die because he turned his Cypres off. He died because he failed to get a working canopy over his head before impact. You can't blame his death on the fact that he had an extra pound of non-functioning electronics in his pack tray.

Now, if you're arguing that he sat there in freefall waiting for his Cypres to fire, then maybe having a Cypres contributed to his death, but I don't think anyone has ever made that argument.

- Dan G

[banesanura 1]

Thanks Andy for the advice!

I will be using an AAD (as I will be renting gear at Skydive Chicago)

The only thing that caught me off guard when checking out their website was "AAD's not required, but recommended" and being a newbie, I thought ALL skydivers had to have them.
Silly me!

Hopefully by August I will have a new rig and be able to jump with you again!

I know that right now I am in no position to be pulling low- or even attempting to swoop- so I equip myself with one.

Here's another question- I generally pull high (being a student) waving off at either 5 or 4.5k - what is the "general" altitude to pull? I am going to be pulling at this alt until I get about 50ish more jumps in me...

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[NickDG 23]

>>No it was not at Quincy, but that's all I can remember
Tom died somewhere south of the boarder, South America, I think, or maybe Mexico . . .

NickD

[virgin-burner 1]

i dont know you, but know that andy's taking good care of you, but i cant help but wonder: 16 jumps, talking about pulling low, swooping!? that kinda worries me.

being a n00b myself n'all, i jump with an AAD, just turn it on and forget about it. if my cypress ever fires on me, i think thats the day i'll re-think about that whole skydiving-thingy.. its a last resort for if all else fails, or i get knocked unconcious somehow.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[banesanura 1]

No no no- I said that I am NOT in a position to be doing any of those for a WHILE......


No worries

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[Remster 30]

Quote

Here's another question- I generally pull high (being a student) waving off at either 5 or 4.5k - what is the "general" altitude to pull? I am going to be pulling at this alt until I get about 50ish more jumps in me...

Plan to pull at an altitude that you feel confortable at.

That being said, a lot of new jumper are nore scared to pull lower then 4k. Most people blame AFF for this, and new jumpers pretty much never (or almost never) jumped from 3K on IAD or clear and pulls.

You'll find that most people who do RW will pull in the 3 to 3.5K range. I wont comment on FF, but I think its similar.

For large formations, people on the outside will often pull at 2.2 to 2.5K.

Remster

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

>>No it was not at Quincy, but that's all I can remember
Tom died somewhere south of the boarder, South America, I think, or maybe Mexico . . .

NickD

Central America is what I seem to remember. Working with an AFF student, and had some kind of collision with him, got knocked out, woke up just seconds from the ground too late to do anything. It really sucks to be in that situation.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[JerryBaumchen 1,436]

Hi Billy,

Re: Tom Piras

Going from memory so consider that:

1. It was in Panama
2. He was down there doing some training
3. In the plane he said "Oh, I forgot to turn my CYPRES on."
4. He hit another canopy while in free-fall and was rendered unconcious
5. He pulled just prior to impact

That's from memory,

JerryBaumchen

[fcajump 164]

Quote

Hi Billy,

Re: Tom Piras

Going from memory so consider that:

1. It was in Panama
2. He was down there doing some training
3. In the plane he said "Oh, I forgot to turn my CYPRES on."
4. He hit another canopy while in free-fall and was rendered unconcious
5. He pulled just prior to impact

That's from memory,

JerryBaumchen

Again, from memory:
4 way (AFF?)
got over someone (they dropped under him?)
the low person's mis-matched and/or poorly maintained gear lead to a PC-out while Tom was overtop
Tom hit the canopy then head-slapped low-man's knee as he went by

Also from memory:
The day he went in, majority of experienced jumpers "wouldn't jump with one-of-them-things".
A month after he went in, there wasn't one available for sale ANYWHERE... the back order time was weeks/months.

Finally, and I got to laugh about it now, for those not jumping in 1990... the advertised reason for the small control unit of the cypres was so that "they'll never know you have one". Now we build rigs so that they can be seen without openning flaps!! My how times change.

My $.02:
Get one, install it, maintain it, learn how to use/maintain it and its limitations. If you ever get to the point that your flying conditions cause it to be a greater risk, then AND ONLY THEN consider turning it off (or not jumping).

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[erdnarob 1]

If you worry too much about the cost of maintenance of a Cypres, buy a Vigil which does not require any scheduled maintenance. The Vigil shows you what it is checking, CUT OK, BATT OK, CRTL OK (cutter, batteries and control or electronics). If one item fails, the Vigil switches off. If the batteries are weak but still good, it tells you "Low Batt". If the 3 tests have been successfully, the chosen mode stays on display: PRO, STUDENT OR TANDEM. Vigil seems to be more advanced about its electronics (more recent technologiy). If you feel you want it to be checked, you can send it back to the manufacturer at your convenience, not after a specific time of 4 years or whatever. Vigil II cost right now 1199$ and its batteries duration is more than 7 years or 2000 jumps. Vigil II batteries cost about 75$. The VIgil is not a plastic box but is made in sturdy molded aluminum and its cables are reinforced with Kevlar. Have a look at it and take it in your hand and you will be convinced.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[Chubba 0]

I thought the new Cypres2 doesn't require you to ever send it in?

Isn't it like 12.5 years, no batt changes etc.?

[banesanura 1]

Quote

I hear you. I have over 20 rigs, getting close to 30,

20 rigs?

*ahem*

Can I have one? muah hahahahah!

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[jakee 1,563]

Quote

I thought the new Cypres2 doesn't require you to ever send it in?

Isn't it like 12.5 years, no batt changes etc.?

No. The Cypres2 doesn't require seperate battery changes every 2 years, but it does need to be sent in for its 4 and 8 year services.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Spriet 0]

For sure having an AAD is safer then not having one, there are only very few exceptions. Don't doubt about that. All statisics will prove.
For sure it does NOT replace any other safety procedure. If you think that, you might indeed be better of without one. AAD is only a last resort, i.e. if every other procedure failed.
Having an AAD will not make you a safer skydiver, it only gives you another protection.
As for the money:
'IF YOU THINK SAFETY IS EXPENSIVE, TRY AN ACCIDENT'

Schol!

[banesanura 1]

Thats a good idea how to think of it in terms of $$- being a student I'll get myself an AAD on my rig- and stick to jumping at a familar dropzone for a while.

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[airdvr 210]

Am I the only one who has a problem with the "turn it on and forget about it" posts.

I don't use one. I'm old school. Opening at 3500 still feels like you're wasting freefall time But I also think if you choose to have one you can't just "turn it on and forget about it". It's a piece of equipment and must be taken into account on every jump. You don't just put your rig on and forget about it, do you?

Laura, I think it's a good idea for you to have one. But I think more important is an RSL. Of the people I know who have gone in all but one would probably still be here if they had an RSL.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[NWFlyer 2]

In my case, when I said "turn it on and forget about it" I meant that I never skydive as if the AAD is there to save my life. If I feel like a skydive is too risky for me without an AAD, I'm not going to get on it with one, either.

But you do make a good point about being aware of its firing parameters and being prepared to make decisions that take into account those firing parameters. One possible outcome of "forgetting" about your AAD is a 2-out. My pull altitude is high enough that I don't come close to firing parameters even if I do go a bit lower than planned or have a long snivel.

The altitude at which I would plan to exit under my reserve in an aircraft emergency also takes into account my AAD's firing parameters.

I don't swoop or perform any aggressive canopy maneuvers under 1500 feet. Keeps my good canopy over my head under my decision altitude, promotes safety in the pattern, and will avoid triggering firing parameters.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[banesanura 1]

Wasn't there a rotisserie cooker with the slogan


"set it and forget it"

muah ahahhahahah.


Sorry- had to do it.

Best Girl Scout Ever.

[jimmytavino 16]

been using a cypress for about 5 years now//
I set it.... AND my brain kicks into the mode that,, " I have an armed cypress on my back..."
i never forget it, and i never rely on it..

that thought was definately NOT forgotten, on a jump a couple of years ago...

I had been out of action for a while and went to the dz on my "skydive birthday" since i felt ready to return to the air...

had a great H & P from 5 grand , repacked, and went up with 6 pals for a RW dive...
It went well. and I was pretty charged up,, at separation time, i and another friend lingered for a couple of seconds, for some grins, and smiles...
away we tracked, lower than we should have been...
i went to deploy,,, could Not find my P C handle... hmmm... tried a second time... No Joy... ( bad right arm,,,poor "behind the back reach"...)
I shoved my container bottom with my left hand, in order to try to put the handle into my right hand,, and in doing so, dropped head low, and into a serious dive....
My Mind FLASHED !!! " whoa.... I AM cypress armed,,, I am getting waaay Low... do NOT want a 2 out.... I sure don't want my cypress to activate..... MUST beat that AAD to the punch.....!!!
and punch i DID.... My left hand to my reserve ripcord.... BANG !!!!! smashing Opening
on my reserve...
My alti. read 1,200 feet......
( idiot)
the main remained un activated, in it's container...

landed ok. my buddy, landed near me... He's a rigger, and while he was telling me he had my freebag spotted, ( so did I ) my only concern was to ask him...
Will Ya' check my cutter???? did it fire???
I think i beat it to the punch..."
He verified that indeed the cutter had NOT fired... i was literally 2 to 3 seconds away from an activation, and if i had continued trying to get the main out...i couldda been in some hot water...

so YES I am aware of my AAD all the time...
but NEVER wanna see it fire, unless i am incapacitated.....I mean REALLY incapacitated...
I did have a serious shoulder dislocation on exit, back in '05... but even then I pulled my reserve,,,, and above 3 grand... ( i had 10,000 feet of freefall to figure out what to do,,, since my right arm was flailing around over my head, and did NOT respond to my repeated attemps,, to check and see IF i could reach my main handle...)

so My attitude is SET it, Remember it's set. BUT always plan to activate a canopy deployment manually...
If an AAD triggers your reserve, AND you are NOT unconsious (sp) .. then in my opinion, you fucked Up...
set it but don't forget it...
only don't obsess about it either...
AND get a canopy out Waaay before 1,500 feet...

todays technology is very good,,, unlike years and years ago..
The old FXC's and Sentinals while ok... did have the capcity to fire when NOT wanted,, I.E. above 3 grand... I knew of a couple of misfires, ( or Mis calibrations ) that put out a reserve, which reulted in a collision by a jumper in freefall, above the one with the AAD... naturally,, the poor bastard who hit the reserve was NOT aad equipped, ( this was 30 yeares ago ) and never deployed...
of course technology is far advanced today..

......... as to the poster who has 20 rigs, and NO AAD .. but to each his own...

and for those new to the scene... it is an important part of our gear... and nowadays,, really SHOULD be considered as needed..

IMHO

jimmy

[MarkM 0]

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Okay- so lets money is tight-

would you recommend to rent gear from the dz with cypress or just jumping your own non AAD equipped rig?

To me there's no doubt you'd be safer in your own non-AAD rig vs a rented AAD one.

Your own gear will probably be better maintained. You'll be more comfortable in it. And since you always use the same gear all the time, you'll get used to any quirks it may have and just have a better feel for it.