Kimblair13 0 #1 October 21, 2005 I'm seriously just kidding. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #2 October 21, 2005 Well there was this video I saw where the TI forgot to hook up the top hooks. The student was only attached at the bottom Come to think of it, I've seen 2 of those. So I'll vote Yep Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #3 October 21, 2005 It's not that bad, there arive new students each day ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #4 October 21, 2005 Well, in a rare case it would be appropriate to pull the instructors rating if he completely dropped a student and the student was killed as a result. But of course it might not be the instructors fault, and sometimes even the best instructors make mistakes. So, it should be decided on a case-by-case basis. For example, a typical tandem system has four separate hook-up points, and that’s a lot for an instructor to do just before making a jump. I’d expect a good instructor to think about making the connections, but we should forgive the failure to actually connect the student if it is a very rare mistake and the instructor is properly rated. It’s also important to remember that just one connection point will hold the student, and connecting one point is faster and easier than using all four. With that in mind, some efficient DZO’s may choose to use just one connection because it makes it easier for the instructor and reduces wear on all the other hardware, thus making the equipment last longer. We also know that an instructor is more likely to forget just one attachment point if that is all that is used. In that case I’d say the benefits to the DZ of limited hardware use outweigh the potential risk to the student, so a failure to attach the single point should be forgiven. Another thing to keep in mind is that the hardware provided on most tandem rigs is way overbuilt, and some DZO’s might switch to weaker hardware to make the rigs easier to use. Sometimes that hardware will fail, and if that’s the case it should probably be forgiven as long as the DZO assures the public that weaker hardware isn’t a problem. We should also consider the other DZ’s in the area. If all the DZ’s have a similar chance of “dropping a student” then pulling an instructors rating could be used as a political attack to hurt one drop zone more than another. In that case, it makes sense for everybody to look the other way because it could happen at any DZ. I also know that students sometimes wiggle out of their harness, or insist that they don’t need to use all four attachment points. A good DZ will always cater to the interest of a student, so if the student is dropped, it is probably the student’s fault, not the instructors. Keep in mind that the instructor may not have known it is wrong to drop a student. He may have seen another instructor do it, or heard that another DZ dropped a student, and there isn’t any real way for the instructor to know that he shouldn’t drop a student too. There isn’t even a BSR or FAR that prohibits dropping students. It’s not fair to punish an instructor for doing something that isn’t against the rules, and that he didn’t even know was wrong. It’s also really critical that we understand that tandems are dangerous, and there is always a potential for something to go wrong, even a potential for the student to be dropped. Students understand this and don’t expect the instructor, DZ, or equipment to be 100% reliable. Thus an instructor probably shouldn’t be held accountable for dropping the student unless he told the student (with witnesses) that it couldn’t ever happen under any circumstances. Of course I believe in safety first, and would never advocate anything that might endanger a student. But we need to understand that tandem jumping is a business. Doing lots of tandems provides profits to the DZ’s and keeps our jump prices low. As experienced jumpers we should usually look the other way when a tandem student is dropped because it isn’t reasonable to expect tandems to be held to a high standard, plus the student signed the waiver. [/satire] .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broke 0 #5 October 21, 2005 A DZ I went to they were showing the what they call "Bad AFF" video in the bar. There was the vid of a tandem where the TM forgot one of the harness connections. The student was doing a pretty good job with his arch considering it was probibly his first time out. But you can clearly see that harness connection missing. The student was potatoe chipping, but otherwise was pretty good. One of the other instructors said that the TM in that vid no longer works there. If this particular DZ will drop a TM for forgetting one harnes connection, what do you think they'll do if something happened to cause a student to "drop"?Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #6 October 21, 2005 Why can't the TI just throw the student out of the plane, and then fly down & hook up to the student in freefall? I saw one do it in the movie Dropzone! Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #7 October 21, 2005 Ah, but there is an FAR that may be interpreted as banning dropping of students by dropping something from an aircraft in such a way that might endanger someone on the ground. If the student doesn't hit anybody or significantly damage property, and nobody calls the FAA, then a warning may be appropriate. Can you imagine the whuffo reading this thread.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #8 October 21, 2005 I say no? No I mean Yes... am I even allowed to answer this question Seriously I haven't lost anyone in weeks. I am so fa-king kidding. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #9 October 21, 2005 Tom, you should seriously write the IRM. All you need on that is paragraph numbers, and I don't think I could tell the difference. F. Dropping a student 1. The tandem instructor should be prepared for the event of forgetting to hook up to the student. 2. If a student falls below the Instructor, it will be necessary to reel in one's drogue, then chase the student to try to clip back to them. 3. The effects of flying in a student's burble are: a. You may fall too fast and strike the student at a high speed. Effective use of the drogue may counter the excessive shock. b. It may be necessary to wrap legs around the student, since one arm may be already engaged in holding onto the drogue. c. The optimum connection sequence is top-left, followed by top-right. DOn't even bother with the bottom two. Nah! My spelling and grammar are WAY too good to write this stuff Edit - k, it's back now.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #10 October 21, 2005 QuoteWell there was this video I saw where the TI forgot to hook up the top hooks. The student was only attached at the bottom Come to think of it, I've seen 2 of those. So I'll vote Yep I saw a video where the student was only hooked up at the top. When the drogue was deployed, the student swang from horizontal to vertical and back to horizontal... That was some 10 years ago..."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #11 October 21, 2005 We had TI who was taking a woman on a birthday jump. He neglected to hook up either top attachment point. He told me later when he deployed the drogue the woman (her upper torso anyway) started going away and it was a sight and a sensation he'd said would spook him for the rest of his life. He managed, with a lot difficulty, to get one upper hook attached but it took him the whole skydive to do it. He was a good fellow, but he was fired the minute we saw the video, but he agreed with that and added he'd never touch any kind of student ever again. At the most basic level if you are a static line Instructor you get your money to make sure the static line is attached to something besides the student. If you're AFF you get paid to make sure the student's ripcord gets pulled. If you're tandem, you get paid to make sure the student is hooked to you. We had another TI a few years later, and this one is even more disturbing, because he was a very experienced (thousands of tandems) multi-rated Instructor and he had a premature main container opening in drogue fall. The bagged main was dancing around and hitting him on the back of the head. He did absolutely nothing about it. The video shows the blank look on his face and you could see he was searching for the answer. But nothing was coming to him. This is before AAD's on tandem rigs and at 1500-feet the camera guy pulled but continued to video the tandem pair. Right before impact a canopy comes out and the pair gets a few second canopy ride. When debriefed it turned out the TI was working nights and doing tandems during the day and he is mentally exhausted. He was fired on the spot. Oh, and what saved them is the student said that to him it looked liked they were just about to hit the ground so he found and pulled the drogue release. It was amazing that after all that flopping around in the bag that it worked, but it did. NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
salsicha 0 #13 October 21, 2005 If the tandem system has four hook-up points, I think that we could jump with 4 students at the same time. Great Idea, tomorrow I’ll do that. c ya ___________________ salsicha - shaggy www.skydiveinrio.com Rio de Janeiro - Brazil Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haymangonzo 0 #14 October 21, 2005 Hey you saddle sniffers! This thread is so good, I just don't know which post is the best in here. *** Nice to meet you toot! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #15 October 24, 2005 QuoteAh, but there is an FAR that may be interpreted as banning dropping of students by dropping something from an aircraft in such a way that might endanger someone on the ground. If the student doesn't hit anybody or significantly damage property, and nobody calls the FAA, then a warning may be appropriate. __________________________________________________ If losing your tandem student creates a danger to someone on the ground, doesn't that indicate a spotting problem??? Can you imagine the whuffo reading this thread.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #16 October 24, 2005 Quote If the tandem system has four hook-up points, I think that we could jump with 4 students at the same time. Great Idea, tomorrow I’ll do that. c ya Tandem 5-way. Now that is a great idea whose time has come....quadruple your income and get the most bang-for-the-buck at the same time. TIs and DZOs both will go for that.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #17 October 24, 2005 I generally try to warn the Students/Passengers about to go on a Tandem to make sure they do EXACTLY what they have been told to do because their Tandem Master has been known to be a Little Quick with the Passenger Release Cutaway Handle and if their TM cuts away one more passenger, The DZ will have to ground him for an entire weekend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #18 October 24, 2005 LMAO this thread was soooo funny, What was great is I spent about 3 hours listening to a group of people talk about making a tandem cutaway where the student goes bye byeSudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ydeeps 0 #19 November 1, 2005 Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
woodpecker 0 #20 November 1, 2005 Still laughing! SONIC WOODY #146 There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #21 November 1, 2005 QuoteStill laughing! Yes, it was particularly tasteful timing for you to bump this thread after this weekend's incident in Atlanta. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpergirl 0 #22 November 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteStill laughing! Yes, it was particularly tasteful timing for you to bump this thread after this weekend's incident in Atlanta. Agreed. I wonder if this thread can be deleted now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #23 November 1, 2005 Why did you reply to one person and quote another? In all fairness, woodpecker might not have a clue what happened in Atlanta this weekend. Not everyone stays glued to the incident forum. The thread is funny. It's timing is awkward. I personally don't see a reason to delete it.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #24 November 1, 2005 QuoteWhy did you reply to one person and quote another? In all fairness, woodpecker might not have a clue what happened in Atlanta this weekend. Not everyone stays glued to the incident forum. The thread is funny. It's timing is awkward. I personally don't see a reason to delete it. I quoted woodpecker in a reply to woodpecker. I also wasn't the one who requested that it be deleted. I was just commenting that it was unfortunate timing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #25 November 1, 2005 Quote The thread is funny. It's timing is awkward. I personally don't see a reason to delete it. This thread was started before the accident happened. Out of respect for those involved this past weekend, it would be best to leave the funny stuff out..."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
