Lawdog1 0 #1 June 28, 2008 Ok to prevent the anticipated flames . . I am not looking to change gear. This just a question for the sake of my curiosity for those that may have personal knowledge. Is there such a thing as an entry level elliptical? Obviously not x-braced, or as ground hungry as a Katana seems to be. But a canopy that will ease someone into the world of high performance elliptical 9 cells? A Nitron? A Saffire? ( described as lightly elliptical but so is my spectre) A Vision? Yes I know wing loading is a huge, maybe the biggest, factor so don't go there. Just looking for info about designs in general Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
someday 0 #2 June 28, 2008 me too, im asking his question except more enthusiastic..(and you can flame me all you want) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
in2jumping 0 #3 June 28, 2008 Quoteme too, im asking his question except more enthusiastic..(and you can flame me all you want) What is wrong with the canopies you guys are currently jumping? Why not stick with them for a few hundred more jumps and learn to fully fly them before moving to something else? Seems like everyone is in a race these days to downsize and jump the latest radical canopies and end up either dead or injured. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #4 June 28, 2008 sabre2, maybe a fusion. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaylorC 0 #5 June 28, 2008 QuoteQuoteme too, im asking his question except more enthusiastic..(and you can flame me all you want) What is wrong with the canopies you guys are currently jumping? Why not stick with them for a few hundred more jumps and learn to fully fly them before moving to something else? Seems like everyone is in a race these days to downsize and jump the latest radical canopies and end up either dead or injured. Its post like these that i never refer new jumpers to dz.com. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #6 June 28, 2008 Why do you need anything like that??? What do you want from your next canopy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hausse 0 #7 June 28, 2008 Quote Ok to prevent the anticipated flames . . I am not looking to change gear. This just a question for the sake of my curiosity for those that may have personal knowledge. Is there such a thing as an entry level elliptical? Obviously not x-braced, or as ground hungry as a Katana seems to be. But a canopy that will ease someone into the world of high performance elliptical 9 cells? A Nitron? A Saffire? ( described as lightly elliptical but so is my spectre) A Vision? Yes I know wing loading is a huge, maybe the biggest, factor so don't go there. Just looking for info about designs in general Has anybody of those that are making the you shouldn't be flying that comments considered that he really might just be wondering?!? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sid 1 #8 June 28, 2008 read the write up and reviews of the FireBolt http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=FireBoltPete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #9 June 28, 2008 I'm not instructor mind you but here is my experience. I have a sabre2 -170 which is semi-elliptical. A few weeks back I let our camera guy take my rig as his wasn't packed. I took his Sabre 150 up next load. Really didn't like the way it flew. Toggle pressure and response was much slower. Despite being 20sq ' smaller it didn't seem to fly that much quicker. The sabre1 is not tapered. So maybe try a few on a semi-elliptical if you haven't already. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #10 June 28, 2008 QuoteQuoteme too, im asking his question except more enthusiastic..(and you can flame me all you want) What is wrong with the canopies you guys are currently jumping? Why not stick with them for a few hundred more jumps and learn to fully fly them before moving to something else? Seems like everyone is in a race these days to downsize and jump the latest radical canopies and end up either dead or injured. Wow. Welcome to Dropzone.com .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #11 June 28, 2008 not sure if it is true but JumpShack say their Firebolt can be a novice level canopy and it is ellipical. This when loaded under 0.85:1. I have been interested to find out so have a demo 182 on its way for low time jumpers to try out. Also, I have seen many people struggle to pack a brand new Sabres - in fact I was one many years ago. The firebolt is hybrid so should make it easier for newer jumpers. I will let you know. Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lawdog1 0 #12 June 28, 2008 Thank you Hausse. And yea if everyone actually read the first sentance of my post, I am not looking to buy gear, I love my spectre, I was just curious Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broke 0 #13 June 29, 2008 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3209202;search_string=student%20Katana;#3209202 Check out this linkDivot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #14 June 29, 2008 You realise that is a joke right? The search term to use is "Semi-elliptical", that will result in hundreds of matches and info on the canopies. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sergant 0 #15 June 29, 2008 Quote Ok to prevent the anticipated flames . . I am not looking to change gear. This just a question for the sake of my curiosity for those that may have personal knowledge. Is there such a thing as an entry level elliptical? Obviously not x-braced, or as ground hungry as a Katana seems to be. But a canopy that will ease someone into the world of high performance elliptical 9 cells? A Nitron? A Saffire? ( described as lightly elliptical but so is my spectre) A Vision? Yes I know wing loading is a huge, maybe the biggest, factor so don't go there. Just looking for info about designs in general Good question IMO 1. have a real reason to get a fully elliptical canopy (trying to look cool is not the one) 2. have 400-500 jumps total (and 150-200 within last year) 3. check manufacturers recommendation for WL 4. talk to your local canopy pilots whom you trust. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sagan 0 #16 June 29, 2008 I think the spirit of the original question is what the hierarchy of canopies tends to be. Just throwing it out there, does the following seem about right? 7 cell: 1) Older Models (accuracy canopies) 2) Spectre Class 3) ? 9 cell: 1) Student (Manta/Navigator) 2) Sabre Class (Pilot, Safire1/2, Sabre1/2) 3) Stilleto / Katana / XFire1/2 / Mamba 4) X-Braced Again, just guessing, but I think the question is, especially in the step of 2 to 3 of the 9 cell category, is there anything in between or is it baptism by fire? This is all assuming starting at one level's min recommended jump#, WL and moving within the same class to the top end of the WL spectrum along with being able to fly the canopy to the limit requiring a new class. That question as was suggested is probably the first to ask.-Patrick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #17 June 29, 2008 Quote7 cell: 1) Older Models (accuracy canopies) 2) Spectre Class 3) ? 9 cell: 1) Student (Manta/Navigator) 2) Sabre Class (Pilot, Safire1/2, Sabre1/2) 3) Stilleto / Katana / XFire1/2 / Mamba 4) X-Braced This makes no sense. There are almost universal airfoils you can you from student to ballistic WL e.g. Cobalt, Firebolt. I don't think we need these categories. I like Icarus' WL explanation much. There are other approaches in others countries, they have a list what canopies can someone use under 250 jumps and The question is still out there, what he wants from his next canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RkyMtnHigh 0 #18 June 29, 2008 I have a Vengeance for sale _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #19 June 29, 2008 Here is a list of canopies and when you are allowed to jump them over here, it's a good guide for how hp a canopy is: http://parachute.nl/fileadmin/knvvlpa_upload/pdf/BVR_bijlage_B_versie_10-2007.pdf The listing is by canopy brand/type, total jumpnumbers, jumps last yr, max wingload and minimum canopy size. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #20 June 29, 2008 OK, not to flame you, but maybe "warm you up" a bit...I glanced at your profile, and... what's with the 126 sq ft reserve with a 1.31 WL at 100 jumps? I sure hope you don't have to make a no-hands, no-flare landing, or set it down in a postage-stamp sized out - each of which is very possible with a reserve landing... ...just friendly food for thought.... (P.S. - my reserve is larger than my main - there's a reason for that...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #22 June 30, 2008 Quote Is there such a thing as an entry level elliptical? Honestly, I don't know. However, by the time many jumpers start looking seriously at ultra-high-performance canopies, they have a good idea what they want to be able to do with it. The circles of people in specific disciplines of the sport vary. Many folks will talk with each other to get some ideas, and demo canopies from the manufacturer. Some, will not do that, and play the odds. You may have seen the type, 300 jump-sky-god "ready" to fly a napkin sized Velocity. Candidates for Darwinism. Then, there are many in-between. The first elliptical I ever jumped was a Stiletto. I didn't fly any super crazy patterns with it, but really enjoyed the openings, and flare power etc. The product line has expanded greatly the past six or seven years. The sport has evolved too. One high-performance canopy pilot I know and think knows his stuff pretty well migrated from a Sabre to Stiletto to Velocity. Everyone's results will vary. Another experienced canopy pilot I know plans on getting a Katana (up from a Safire2). So, the argument could be said, no - there isn't an "entry" level elliptical. On the other side, some could say yes - the products like the Safire2, Sabre2 and Pilot being semi-elliptical are a step toward that design, and they handle being flown aggressively about as well as conservatively... Doesn't really answer your question...All shapes and sizes.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broke 0 #23 June 30, 2008 lol of course I know it is an evil joke. I think Truman Sparks of Pecos Parachute school would be the give away there Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #24 June 30, 2008 You DO realise that it is posts like these that lead to the "I'm not an instructor/have low jump#s but" type of reply, don't you? "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #25 June 30, 2008 >Is there such a thing as an entry level elliptical? Most canopies nowadays are elliptical/tapered to some degree. Some good mid-experience mildly elliptical canopies include: Silhouette (I have two and like them) Pilot (have had 3 over the years) Safire2 Spectre (7 cell, pretty docile at larger sizes) Vision or Nitron would be a step above them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
