Advice on good intermediate canopy

[skron 0]

I have been jumping for 1 year and have 232 jumps right now. I started on a Triathlon 160 for 125 jumps then went to my Sabre 135 (I am 135lbs). I realize that I am still inexperienced and no where near ready for high performance. I used to hate landing and no wind days, but I have dialed in my Sabre enough that I now look forward to no winds and have learned to love the speed.

I want to downsize and go with a little more performance in about 50 - 100 jumps from now. I was considering a Safire 119. Does anyone have any suggestions or advice?

Well behaved women don't often make history.

[irishrigger 32]

you dont mention what weight you are or what wingloading you have at the moment.but i am glad to hear that you being sensible about down sizing.i fear its the biggest mistake people make these days.
a saffire 119 is a reasonable choice,from what i can gather.but a lot of it has to do with wingloading.what would be your wing loading be on the 119? also what size reserve have you got?
if you going to wait another 50-100 jumps before down sizing again,you might consider a stilleto 120.its one of the best canpys ever made in my opinion.although of course there is more high performance canpopys out there,a lot of people still favour the stilletto.
so well done for being safety concious about down sizing.pity that a lot of other people are not.
take care and blue skies and safe landings of course
Rodger

[phoenixlpr 0]

Demo, demo, demo.

Than choose what you like.

[billvon 2,990]

>I was considering a Safire 119.

I assume you mean Safire2. The Safire1's didn't fly as well.

I'd recommend demoing a Safire2 129 to see if you like it after putting 100 or so jumps on the 135. You will notice a significant increase in performance. Also consider the Pilot and Sabre2; they are all in a similar class.

My wife has a Safire2 119 and likes it a lot, but she's loading it closer to 1.4.

[dragon2 2]

Didn't fly as well?? I love mine! It's a size smaller than advertised so that may surprise you esp. if you're downsizing, but other than that, it doesn't open, fly and land all that different from a safire 2. I've just paid a LOT of money to get my safire 119 relined I love it so much I sold my safire 135 to another jumper and when I wanted it back she refused to sell it back to me

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[billvon 2,990]

> Didn't fly as well?? I love mine!

Great! I had a Safire1 129 for a while and hated it. Didn't flare well, didn't 'feel good' while flying. Then Derek did a brake-line mod on it and it got considerably better. The Safire2's I've tried are even better, though.

[dragon2 2]

If you are considering a safire 1 119, remember it's about 108 sqft! Quite small regardless of wingload for ~300 jumps. A safire 2 119 might still be too small, I'd go for a sabre2 135, safire 2 129, fusion 135 or pilot 132 first those will all give you plenty more performance than a sabre 135.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dragon2 2]

Quote

> Didn't fly as well?? I love mine!

Great! I had a Safire1 129 for a while and hated it. Didn't flare well, didn't 'feel good' while flying. Then Derek did a brake-line mod on it and it got considerably better. The Safire2's I've tried are even better, though.

I know there's a difference between Spanish safires and American (or South African? dunno) made safires, my 135 was Spanish, not sure about the 119 as I got it 2nd hand out of the USA. A reline for a safire here is >EUR 600 (>USD 880!!!) at the moment, crazy huh, and the lineset also arrived last week after trying to order one starting in november and getting confirmation at the PIA. Still worth it though for this canopy.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[millertimeunc 0]

+1 on the Sabre2, Pilot, and Fusion. I demo'd all 3 of them a while ago when I was looking for a new canopy. The pilot has snappier turns but a shorter recovery arc and ok landings, the Sabre2 has decent turns, a long recovery arc, liked to open with closed end cells, and had the best landings of any canopy I've ever jumped, and the Fusion was so long ago that I don't remember much about it other than it was nice to fly and had good landings. Demo a Nitron while you're at it. I fly a lightly loaded Nitron right now, and love it!

The best things in life are dangerous.

[erdnarob 1]

If you are now more confident in no wind landing, another way to go is to keep the same canopy size ( ie. a ZP 135 as you mentioned) but go for something more elliptical like a Nitron 135. It's maybe a too big step to change both the size and the type of canopy. Is that makes sense?
On the other hand, I don't understand why people are still thinking of Stiletto (designed 15 years ago) while the Katana is way better for stability, spin recovery and general reliabilty. Instead of a Safire 2-119, I would rather go for a Sabre 2-120 with its extremely powerful flare.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[billvon 2,990]

>A reline for a safire here is >EUR 600 (>USD 880!!!) at the moment . . .

At those prices I'd make one before buying one!

[skron 0]

>>you dont mention what weight you are or what wingloading
>>might consider a stilleto 120.

I am 135 lbs w/o gear.
I am afraid of Stilettos. I have heard horror stories about them, seen 3 cutaways from spinning ones and seen someone bounce on landing one.

Could someone tell me more about the Nitron? It was suggested but I'm thought it may be too much performance for now.

Also I am planning on buying a new rig when I get a new canopy, so I want to wait until I can get a 120ish no matter what type so I can get a little rig. That might sound silly from a newbie, but if I'm gonna spend that much money on a rig I want one that will last a looong time.

Well behaved women don't often make history.

[dragon2 2]

You can buy a perfectly little rig with a 135 in it. Most of the girls at my DZ (even the ones with 2000+ jumps) have a rig like that. I'm the same weight as you, I only bought a smaller rig (for a 120-110) at 950 jumps, as a hint. Even though I was allowed a 120 much sooner under our canopy rules, which now state you have to have 700 jumps to jump a 120 (another hint). Getting a rig that will last you is fine, my rig for 150-135 lasted me 950 jumps, and I only sold it because another girl needed a rig for a 150 and I could trade it for the smaller rig and some cash, is 950 jumps long enough for you? Getting a small rig makes not much sense at all, since a properly fitting rig for a 135 and say a 126 reserve would also fit you very nicely.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[monkycndo 0]

It seems a bit odd that you are afraid of a certain canopy due to reputation only, but are willing to throw common sense out the window so you can have "little rig" with a intermediate canopy loaded at around 1.3:1. That loading isn't high in itself. But any canopy at that size is high performance. With less than 300 jumps, not what I would consider a good call.

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[indyz 1]

Quote

I am afraid of Stilettos. I have heard horror stories about them, seen 3 cutaways from spinning ones and seen someone bounce on landing one.

Three things:
1. Most of the "Spinetto" stories are from when they first came out and before people realized the shitty body position they got away with on their Sabres wasn't going to cut it anymore.
2. Stilettos are one of the most popular canopies ever made. There are so many of them out there, it isn't surprising that you've seen some cut away.
3. You can pile in under any canopy. Most of the time, it isn't the canopy's problem, it's the pilot's.

[billvon 2,990]

>Could someone tell me more about the Nitron?

Similar to Crossfire in performance level. Does _not_ like to spin up and is very stable in brakes. Larger ones have very soft openings; smaller ones have somewhat firmer openings. (Not hard, just not very soft.)

[scootstevens 0]

hands down Sabre2 120, you will love it.

[skron 0]

I think you misunderstood what I said. I don't want to downsize in order to get a little rig...I want to downsize (or possibly not downsize just switch type of canopy) because I want something that is going to do more for me than my Sabre 1 and in another 6 months I believe I will be ready for that. I am only trying to get a little advice before doing so from some people who have different canopies and are willing to offer advice (not criticism) to less experienced jumpers.

My only reason for stating that I'd like a little rig is because I figure I will only buy 1 custom rig and want it to last a long time.

Well behaved women don't often make history.

[VectorBoy 0]

At those prices I'd make one before buying one!

[AggieDave 6]

Demo a Sabre2, a Pilot and a Safire2. However, demo them in the same size as your Sabre1. That way you have a far comparison to what you know from your current canopy choice. Otherwise each one of those canopies would be an increase in performance and you would have no base line to really choose from. Nevermind the solid safety choice of either downsizing OR changing the plane form.

Then demo the next size down in the canopy that you enjoy the most, if you absolutely need to downsize AND its appropriate.

I'm willing to bet that you'll come back to the Sabre2, in my opinion its the best all around intermediate canopy you can buy. Then again, my opinion is tainted, so demo those canopies and let us know what you think.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[hackish 8]

I'm not in a position to give you advice but I would like to point out that the sabre1 and sabre2 are completely different canopies.

-Michael

[erdnarob 1]

It's my belief that if the Stiletto was an airplane it will never get its airworthiness permit. Why ? Because when that parachute deploys with a spin, it keeps on spinning until you counteract the turn with toggles provided you don't have line twists increased by the spin. After reading all those posts I don't think I make a mistake by suggesting you to jump a Nitron 135. That will be a medium while fully tapered canopy before going on a Katana 120 two hundreds jumps or so later. Nitron opens and flies quite well and have a very good flare which is good for no wind landing.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[monkycndo 0]

Quote

I think you misunderstood what I said. I don't want to downsize in order to get a little rig...I want to downsize (or possibly not downsize just switch type of canopy) because I want something that is going to do more for me than my Sabre 1 and in another 6 months I believe I will be ready for that. I am only trying to get a little advice before doing so from some people who have different canopies and are willing to offer advice (not criticism) to less experienced jumpers.

My only reason for stating that I'd like a little rig is because I figure I will only buy 1 custom rig and want it to last a long time.

I'm sorry that you see what I said as criticism. I believe I understood what you said.

Quote

so I want to wait until I can get a 120ish no matter what type so I can get a little rig.

Rig is more important than canopy size/type.

The rule of thumb of 1.0:1 till 100 jumps and +.1 for each 100 jumps would put you at around 1.3 once you hit 300 jumps. But you at 1.3 on a 120 at ~155lb out the door will handle very different then me at 1.3 on a 150 at ~195lb out the door. The shorter lines on the 120 will respond much quicker then on my 150. Changing size and planform at the same time at such a relatively small size canopy is something to consider. BillVon has suggested a Saffire2 129. That is a good suggestion. The performance difference alone without the downsize will be remarkable. Take a look at Bill's downsizing checklist. All good skills to master before going smaller. I have both a Sabre1 and Sabre2 in a 150. I can really feel the difference in how they handle. Burying a toggle on the Sa2 vs the Sa1 will burn up a lot more altitude and in a hurry. I demo'd the Sabre2 and Pilot. Both good canopies. I preferred the Sa2 because the toggle stroke/flare range was more of what I was used to since I downsized through PD canopies.

I'd find my canopy (appropriate type and size) then choose the container to hold them. Containers have a fair amount of range in the size of canopies that will fit. Going from a 135 to a 120 and maybe 1 more downsize is not unheard of. Hell, by that time, you might be ready for your first cross braced swoop machine. They pack big.

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[chri 0]

Also I am planning on buying a new rig when I get a new canopy, so I want to wait until I can get a 120ish no matter what type so I can get a little rig. That might sound silly from a newbie, but if I'm gonna spend that much money on a rig I want one that will last a looong time.

You could also buy an 7-cell canopy like a spectre, i think they usually pack 1 size smaller.
But thats an individual choice if you like the way a 7-cell flies.
IMHO, it would be worth a test jump

[millertimeunc 0]

I fly a Nitron 170 loaded at 1.3 and I love it. The Crossfire has a bit more performance and definitely stays in a dive longer (my experience). The Nitron is like a Stiletto minus the "bad habits" (real or imagined) and minus some of the performance as well. I fly a wingsuit with mine, and even in line twists it behaves itself. Both the stiletto and the Nitron have a pretty short recovery arc, which some people don't like. Personally, it doesn't make any difference to me because I don't swoop. The flare is outstanding. In fact, the only canopy I've ever jumped that flares better than my Nitron is a Sabre2. I'd say demo a Nitron and a Sabre2 in the size you're looking for and see which one you like best. YMMV

The best things in life are dangerous.