PD 190 to ZP

[nofun 0]

Hi

My rigger told me that I need a new rig and a reserve for the next season, because it's worn out. The main parachute is a PD 190 (9-cell) and in good condition. But maybe it's also a good time to change the main. I've got about 100 jumps with that PD 190 loading 1,16:1.

I'm not unhappy with that PD190 but I think a little better flare and a better coming back from a bad spot would be nice. I'm thinking about getting a ZP Parachute like the Safire2 or Sabre2, maybe an Omega.

What size would you recommend? 190 or 170?
7 cell or 9 cell? I'm not interested in swooping.

Or should I keep my PD190 for another 100-300 jumps?

I read about the differences between F111 and ZP canopies, and from that point of view, a 170 would be fine. But my exit weight is about 220 lbs, so the wing loading would be 1.29:1.

I will also talk to an instructor, but I'd like to know what you think about.

Thank you

[pilotdave 0]

I'd stick with a 190 if I were you. A ZP canopy is going to be a lot faster than you're used to, even in the same size. You'll be blown away by the opening and flare when you try something new. A spectre will land a little more like you're used to, but with a better flare. A sabre2 will feel completely different... most likely in a good way. I wouldn't worry about 7-cell vs. 9-cell... Just start demoing some different canopies and see what you like. You're really maxing out the wingloading on your PD190 as it is, so I'd definitely suggest a newer canopy.

Dave

[nofun 0]

I jumped a V-Tec 190 (F111 and ZP mixed) some years ago and I liked it. It was nice to handle and more sportive than my PD 190, but I don't think that was a huge step between these two canopies.

How is the difference to a semi-elliptical like Safire2/Sabre2 or Omega/Spectre?

Demos are not as easy available as in United States, that's why I'm interested in getting more information here.

[pilotdave 0]

My first 99 jumps were all on F111 canopies... mostly PD 9-cells. My 100th was with a sabre2 demo. After opening I said to myself "ooohhh, so that's what a snivel is." Then on landing, I began my flare... felt normal. Then a little more flare and I was going back up in the air. "Ooohhh, so that's what a flare is..."

I later decided it was time to buy a new canopy... reading online, I liked the sound of the spectre. I put 17 jumps on a demo and was ready to buy one, but decided to try out a sabre2 again before making up my mind. Weather was bad when i had the demo so i only put 2 jumps on it... but I knew right away that I liked it a lot more than the spectre. I also know a lot of people that have tried both and much prefer the spectre. One isn't better than the other, they're just different.

Can't comment on the safire2 or omega... never jumped them. But I'd really try to see what you can borrow. Reading on here will only tell you so much. Really need to try them to see what you like. But I don't think you can really go wrong with any of em.

Dave

[hackish 8]

With 220lbs you're probably similar to me with 180lbs and a 170 versus your 190. I flew an F111 190 some time ago and it felt like a big fat wet pig. Toggle response wasn't very satisfying nor was the flare.

The biggest difference I find is that the sabre2 is responsive - it does what you suggest rather than having to push it into doing what you want. Demo it but you may not want to go back!

-Michael

[nofun 0]

That's right, my PD109 is not really responsive.

So, what size of sabre2 did you choose?

I'll try to get some demo but it's not so easy to get a demo in 190-size here.

[nate25 0]

I would suggest buying a storm 190 and ride it for a year or two and when you get read to sell it I should be ready for a 190 by then

[hackish 8]

I got a sabre2-170. Previous owner was about your weight - he really enjoyed it for the powerful flare.

-Michael

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Quote

I'm not unhappy with that PD190 but I think a little better flare and a better coming back from a bad spot would be nice. I'm thinking about getting a ZP Parachute like the Safire2 or Sabre2, maybe an Omega.

What size would you recommend? 190 or 170?
7 cell or 9 cell? I'm not interested in swooping.

If you haven't already, take a trip to the PD website www.performancedesigns.com and check out some of the "flight charachteristics" files. Yes, they are written about PD canopies, but they include a lot of interesting information that applies to all canopies.

One of the things it will tell you is that if you are happy with the speed of your canopy and only want to improve things like flare power, there is no need to drop a size. The change from F-111 to ZP will provide a dramatic flare perofrmance improvement, as will the newer airfoils designed into modern canopies such as the Sabre2, ect. In addition, you will gain better performance in brakes, a flatter glide, and likley more "fun" turns. All this while maintaining your forward speed in strait and level flight, where a size drop will increase the forward speed, and make landing and such more tricky.

My thought is to stay at 190. As for 7 vs. 9 cells, it depends on what you want your canopy to be good at.

9 cells provides a flatter glide that can sometimes get you back from a long spot and tends to make big, sweeping, diving turns that allow it to provide higher performance if desired. they tend to trade this for a tricker landing, less forgiveness, and often a rougher opening.

7 cells will give you a canopy that tends to be easier to shut down on landing and to bring in to a tight landing area, and due to the reduced wingspan can really be whipped around in a turn. They also seem to open more smoothly. The trade-off is a lesser potential performance and a steeper glide angle.

Actually, it's much more complicated than that, but there's your general info. Personally I prefer 9 cells, but I know lots of people (some VERY experienced) who love the 7-cells.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[LongWayToFall 0]

I was renting a mirage that had a sabre2 210, and put quite a few jumps on it. I really like that canopy, and will for sure buy one some day. However, when it came time to buy my own gear, I opted for a PD210 9cell because of the very reasonable price, and it was in good condition. I was worried, because I had read some people had a very hard time with flaring, especially at higher wing loading (I am at 1.2, you aren't recommended to go over 1.0) but I had no problem flaring. The flare just gets done quickly, where on the sabre2 the flare just keeps lasting and lasting (while you are only inches off the ground). I also found the PD to be quite responsive, impressively so, compared to what I thought it would be. So I can say that I am very happy with buying the PD, it was only $300, less than 100 jumps, and I really like it. So personally, I would stick with the PD as long as possible, it won't be long before you need new lines and at that time maybe you should consider upgrading. To make sure you are getting the most out of your flare, take a look at your brake lines under canopy. When you pull the toggle down, it should only move a couple inches before you see the tail of the canopy start to move, but when it is all the way up, the tail should not be distorted at all.
If you do go with the sabre2, remember that it will pack a size larger.

[jumpwally 0]

Get a PD Sillhouete, both zp and f'111..Bill Booth jumps one

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

Get a PD Sillhouete, both zp and f'111..Bill Booth jumps one

Silhouette is the best kept secret in skydiving.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[DoubleH 0]

Ive got a Silhouette and it is awesome. Nice strong flare and you can really throw it about the sky. Im looking to downsize from a 210 to a 190 and was considering going for a Sabre 2 but may just stick with another Silhouette. Mines got about 500 jumps on it so im guessing that a brand new one would be even more fun

[d123 1]

Can you pop-up if you flare it reasonably faster(not very fast)?

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[nofun 0]

I have the chance to demo a Silhouette 190 and a Pilot 188 in 2 weeks. I'm very curious about their characteristics. It's not easy to find out what the canopies are like without demoing them myself. Reading the reviews is like every canopy is better than all others.

But if I see right, the Pilot is more zippy and has more performance than the Silhouette while the Silhouette is easier to fly and more forgiving (and easier to pack

[nofun 0]

Update:
I made 2 jumps with a Silhouette 190 and 2 jumps with a Pilot 188 a few days ago.

If I had to choose from one of them, I would choose a Silhouette, I think. They differ not as much as I thought but I think the flare of the Silhouette is more predictable and more linear than the flare of the Pilot (and it is really easy to pack). But I only made 2 jumps with each of these canopies, so I don’t know if my conclusion is right.

It would be nice to demo a PD Storm, a Spectre, a Icarus Omega and a Safire...

I think I will stick with a 190, although these ZP canopies didn’t seem to be much more challenging than my PD 190 (I had perfect conditions for the demojumps). Maybe I will try a 170 just for comparison (under good conditions), but as I do not much jumps each year, I will stay on the safe side with lower wing loading.