advice on main size

[Rach005 0]

I'd appreciate the advice...Lately, I've had some contradicting advice from experienced skydivers and thought I would post here.
I just learned to skydive. About a month ago. I have 80 jumps (living at Taft DZ for 3 weeks!) lol and really want to buy gear now.
Loads of people have said that a sabreII, fusion or pilot would be great for me. I learned on a Manta186 and when at home (Canada) I'm renting a sabre 210. I don't particularly like canopy flying (much prefer freefall) but I want to be set up for awhile. My local rigger has a sabreII 170 which he is inviting me to fly as I please (will do so this weekend i reckon) but another DZ today suggested I fly that sabreII 170 a few times then seriously consider getting a 150? My "normal" weight is 135 (puts me at a 160 exit load) but recent summer activities has me weighing an extra 10lbs! (but I know how to sort this!)
SO......
my question: Would a few jumps on a sabreII 170 be sufficient enough to consider downsizing to a 150? (still gives me a loading of 1.06). Or should I never mind even thinking 150 and buy a 170? (.94 loading ratio)?
Thanks,
Rach

[councilman24 37]

Canopy reaction to control input does not scale. A 150 loaded at 1.0 will be less forgiving than a 220 loaded at 1.0. While the difference in a 150 and a 170 is small, I've gotten in the habit of never recommending anything small than a 170 for a first canopy. It's not just the loading but the size combined with the loading. If you were going to load a 220 at 1.0 I'd probably say fine (in the absence of all other pertinent information). But I've too many people look only at wing loading, ignore the size, and get in over their heads.

210 to a 150 is a big jump. Be careful with the jump to a 170.

Look up Bill Von's canopy skills list on here and look at the articles on PD's web site for more information.

My wife, at 125lbs plus gear, jumped a Triathlon 160 for 400 jumps. Downsized to a 135 and kind of wishes she didn't.

I'd stick with a rig that the 170 fits in and down size once in that rig a few hundred jumps in the future. Especially if you see the canopy as the way to end the freefall and live instead of an e ticket ride on it's own.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[bwilling 0]

Quote

Lately, I've had some contradicting advice from experienced skydivers and thought I would post here.

Why, so you can get some more contradicting advice from experienced skydivers over the internet? Sorry, couldn't resist!

Asking a bunch of people that have never seen you land a parachute what size parachute you should buy is at best only going to confuse you more. If you're a conservative person by nature, take the more conservative advice. If you're more aggressive by nature, take the more aggressive advice. But take the advice of your trusted instructors/mentors, not the advice of people who've never seen you fly a parachute.

I can tell you that if you choose the conservative approach and purchase something like a Sabre II 170 or Pilot 168, you'll be getting a great canopy in one of the most popular sizes made, and will have no trouble selling it, if and when you do decide to downsize later. If you choose an appropriately size container system, you should be able to put either a 170 or a 150 main in it, as they generally will accommodate a (limited) range of sizes.

"If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got."

[Rach005 0]

I knew someone was going to come up with "I haven't seen you jump so I really can't say"
HOWEVER....
Thank you both for the advice! I was leaning towards the 170 but wondered if I was just delaying the inevitable? The rig I have coming is a Javelin that indeed fits 150 and 170. The reserve is a PD176 so I'm pleased with that.
Terry, I appreciate the info about your wife! Makes me feel better to see that she jumped such a big canopy (given her size) for so many jumps.
And given that I can't really find a 170 like I am looking for...i see what you mean by being able to sell it off again !
170 it is!
thanks again,
Rach

[bwilling 0]

Quote

Thank you both for the advice! I was leaning towards the 170 but wondered if I was just delaying the inevitable?

There's nothing inevitable regarding downsizing! A Sabre II or Pilot at an almost 1:1 wing loading may be all you ever want from a canopy, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that! Downsize only if and when you're ready and you want to, not just because the 'majority' does it.

I do have a point about the whole 'we've never seen you land thing... although Terry did give you some great advice despite having never seen you land.

"If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got."

[Bertt 0]

Unless you're interested in swooping and that sort of thing, the only thing you'll give up by going with a 170 rather than a 150 is some wind penetration. That can actually work in your favor, because you might be a little more reluctant to jump the bigger canopy when the wind gets strong and gusty - which is exactly when it's best to be sitting on the ground wishing you were in the air instead of in the air wishing you were on the ground. Just something to think about.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[AggieDave 6]

Here's an article that Scott Miller wrote. It might help you answer some of your questions:

http://www.canopyskills.com/Docs/Choosing-Combined.pdf

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[dragon2 2]

Most girls I know are happy with a 1.0 wingload or slightly above, my former teammates still fly 190-170-150s at now >500 jumps each. Our canopy rules help here but while the boys generally can't wait to downsize as soon as they are allowed, the girls usually don't. YMMV.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[siddacious 0]

If I understand correctly, the 170 is free to borrow, so why not jump it? Chances are it will keep you entertained for plenty long, especially if you don't have a particular interest in canopy flight.

If you're thinking about buying, 170 may have slightly more resale value than a 150, being a popular first canopy size. That said, a 150 would be marginally easier to pack, and slightly more entertaining.

There are arguments to be made for either side, but as has been suggested, if you do go the 150 route, make sure you are comfortable with all the requisite maneuvers on the 170 before downsizing.

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[pinkfairy 0]

I think you should get a canopy size that you feel comfortable with flying now, and maybe downsize later.

I also think that PD Silhouette would be an excellent choice for a lightly loaded main canopy. I love mine.

A lighter wingload will mean that you can't get through high winds, so you'll have to set a lower wind limit than people sith small and fast parachutes, but I do think that avoiding strong wind when you are new is a good thing.

I was told to get a 135, but didn't dare to fly it, so got a 150, that I'm still flying, and BTW, I wingload it at 0.94. I haven't tested this, but I do think that the freefall is pretty much the same with the 150 as with the 135.



And yes, people who downsize too fast or jump in wind conditions that they can't handle have an increased risk of injury.

So make up your own mind, and remember that it's supposed to be fun. I can't imagine that flying something that you can't handle would be fun.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[rhys 0]

I suggest you try a saffire 2 169 as well, the openings are supurb, and it opens your options for buying your first canopy.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Rach005 0]

So I read the articleMORE CONFUSION!
Am I really meant to steer clear of anything remotely eliptical? Will definitely jump the sabreII 170 this weekend. That will help. I'm just wondering how much of a diff. would a saffire or samurai (of the same size) make ?
--we need blue skies here in Canada!!!!

[bwilling 0]

Sabre 2, Pilot, and Safire 2 are all the same class canopy, just made by different manufacturers. They're all lightly shaped planforms (elliptical if you must), and are considered to be good novice to intermediate canopies at appropriate wing loadings. They're sized a bit different, but not enough to make any significant difference... the Sabre 2 is 170sf, the Pilot is 168sf, and the Safire 2 is 169sf.

The Samurai is a more aggressive design, and would be considered an 'expert' class canopy. That manufacturer (Big Air Sportz) also has an intermediate class canopy called the Lotus that would be a better fit for you, as it compares more favorably with the above three. The main difference with BAS canopies is that they're all air locked designs, a feature that some people swear by.

By all means, jump the Sabre 2 170 you have available if your instructors are okay with you doing so. It will feel much more responsive (and faster!) than the Manta 185 you've been jumping as the manta is a purely rectangular design. It will also likely have more flare power than the Manta, because the Sabre 2 lands great. I've demo all three of the above canopies, and while they all land good, I thought the Sabre 2 was the best of that lot in terms of flare power.

Have fun and be safe!

"If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got."

[superwoman8433 0]

You are in the exact situation I was in at your jump numbers. I started on a Sabre2 190 and downsized to a 170 at about 50/60 jumps. I didn't care for canopy flying either, I LOVE freefall! I am 135 (exit of 155). I decided to go for the 170 and I am glad I did because I learned to fly that boat in all conditions and it made me a better pilot.

When I downsized to a 150, I could see the difference. it wasn't drastic, but it is noticeable. I believe that you should master the canopy size your on before you decide to downsize because if something happens, a 170 is going to be more forgiving then a 150.

What about canopy flight don't you like? Is it the speed? Is it the landings? What specifically?

I was on my Sabre2 170 for a little over 200 jumps before I downsized.