Extra brake line on a PD143R?

[hackish 8]

This is for the reserve steering lines for a PD143R being packed in a Javelin Odyssey and Sunpath does not say anything about the reserve toggles.

So falling back on the PD manual they give specific instructions on how to attach reserve toggles with microline (this is spectra- I assume somewhere around 600). The thing that concerns me is 15" of extra line after the knotted loop for the toggle.

PD says "PD recommends that the excess line be finger trapped as shown in the diagram."

I don't have a problem with this but why would there be 15" of extra? That's longer than the line from the toggle to the brake loop.

What do people normally do in this situation? The last rigger just wound it up neatly in the velcro line keeper but this length of line flapping in the wind makes me nervous. Am I just being too picky?

-Michael

[shermanator 4]

I'm no rigger, but I sure wouldn't want to see that flapping around above/behind me after I just dealt with a malfunction.

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[mjosparky 4]

Please tell me that is not a picture of a reserve steering line and toggle?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[MB38 0]

That must be the parking brake...

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Quote

Please tell me that is not a picture of a reserve steering line and toggle?

Sparky

Why do you say that, Mikey?

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Well... here's my 1st blush...

First thing I'd do is call up PD or search around their web-site or knock around here and see if I could find PD's line trim specs for a PD143R. Its hard to tell from the pic you posted, but it looks like the toggles might may not been tied off at the correct location... i.e. "too short" which could explain the excess. In other words, find what the measurement from the cat's eye to where the toggle sould be tied off at on the lower control line and see if the rig / reserve in question has the toggles tied off at the right spot... if not, fix it.

If they are tied off at the right spot, then do what the mfgr says... "PD recommends that the excess line be finger trapped...". QED




Bored. Can't sleep.

Check this.

[hackish 8]

Good point about "measuring" the line trim. I did verify that they are tied off at the little black mark as per the PD manual but that's not to say the mark is in the right place. I just rechecked it and I believe they are tied off incorrectly so BK-TOG part of the line includes the knot. I'm going to call PD to triple check this before changing it.

-Michael

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Not sure what you mean by, "...so BK-TOG part of the line includes the knot"? But a picture is worth a 1000 words. Check the Measure-Line-Trim.pdf and call PD like you said.

If the toggles are tied off correctly, I'm not sure what your seeming adverstion to finger trapping the excess is? If there is too much excess to finger trap in the remaining lower control line, then the solution to that is obvious.

Good luck.

[irishrigger 32]

hi,
hard to see from the pic,but i can't see any markings to see if they are correctly set..check the line trim with PD.and i would definitley finger trap the excess.in some cases if there is too much,i cut maybe 4-5" of the excess so that i can get a nice smooth fingertrap.
also on the pic,i think the velcro keeper is in the incorrect position,it should be under neath the toggle, not above it.
personally i modify the toggles to be velcroless.and you need a master riggers ticket for that i believe.
in my opionion PD have the best reserves out there,the one draw back,i have with them is the line they use.if i am correct its untreated microline 825, and that and velcro dont mix very well.i have come across several reserves wherer the lower brake lines was chewed up with the velcro and had to be replaced.and that is just fiding them on a repack,by previous riggers.you need to pay attention when you store the brake line with velcro.
rodger

[billvon 2,989]

>I don't have a problem with this but why would there be 15" of extra?

Many canopies come with more brake line than seems reasonable. It allows the rigger/user to:

1) adjust for different risers. Some risers have longer than normal link to stow ring distance, although it's become pretty standard.

2) adjust for desired slack in brake lines. Some swoopers want more slack to allow better manipulation of front risers. (Not much of an issue for reserves obviously.)

3) allow them to be let out when they shrink due to usage. Again, more for mains than reserves.

I'd trim the excess (whatever won't fit in the fingertrap) and finger trap the remainder.

[hackish 8]

Thanks for all the responses. I got together with another local rigger and we carefully measured it. A previous rigger (perhaps as many as 10 years ago) incorrectly assembled the rig and it went unnoticed until just now.

We measured the lower brake line from the cateye to the toggle and determined it was about 2 1/4" too short. The factory mark at 18 5/8" was in the correct location. The mark was visible at the toggle grommet and without measuring appeared to be correct. The problem was that the loop for attaching this to the toggle was on the wrong side of the mark.
Y brake cascade
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O cat-eye
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O knotted toggle loop
- mark
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| extra line

This means the reserve would have been flying under 1/4 brakes at best.

I removed the toggles and retied the lines in the correct location, then trimmed the leftover and fingertrapped it. The measurement PD lists as BK-TOG is now the correct length according to their trim chart. It's a good thing to put in my bag of experience and check in the future. I can see how it's an easy mistake to make.

-Michael

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

Quote

Please tell me that is not a picture of a reserve steering line and toggle?

Sparky

Why do you say that, Mikey?

The excess brake line looks to be in pretty rough shape.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JerryBaumchen 1,354]

Hi hack,

I would still send an email to PD to determine the correct & latest dimensions.

I was talking with one of the 'top dogs' there earlier this summer about these very dimensions regarding a PDR 160 and they have made some dimensional changes, for the 160. I do not know about the 143.

Just my thoughts,

JerryBaumchen

[mark 107]

Quote

I removed the toggles and retied the lines in the correct location, then trimmed the leftover and fingertrapped it.

That method works okay for reserves. On mains, the fingertrapped line works its way back out.

A better method is to figure out how much take-up there is in an overhand knot. Then make the toggle loop that distance below the factory mark, fingertrap, and tie the knot after making the fingertrap. End by checking the finished length against the published BK-TOG length.

Mark

[RIGGER 0]

PR143 BRK-TOG is 18 5/8" from TOP of Brake Loop to the toggle mark.

From Toggle mark to end of line should be 12"

Remove the line from the toggle - open the knot & measure - if you get the right setting you can move on & re do the finger trap & the knot by the PR manual.

Do on both sides - compeer they are even & accurate.

Work with the chart which match the PR143 Date Of Mfg. - you can get it from PD.

Check also the PR143 line trim by the chart & the lines setting on the links - no in line twists & no crossing lines.

The toggles should be original from the h/c mfg.

Safe Rigging !!!

[RIGGER 0]

Good inspection & well done.

These issues are found at all times - when you have a knot & the line was not cut it is easy to fix BUT when a rigger is doing a loop & sew it shorter or too long a new BRK-TOG line might be needed - Master Rigger / Mfg. work.

Keep doing the good work !!!

[RIGGER 0]

On the PR you can finger trap the line 1/4" after the toggle mark toward the line end - measure the loop size from the toggle mark - it is about 6 cm (2 3/8") loop size & do the overhand knot - the knot will be set at the toggle mark - this method put the knot ON the finger trap entering point & it will NOT come out - same for the mains.

Try it - I use that for years, works well & the BRK-TOG is accurate.

Be Safe !!!

[hackish 8]

Quote

The excess brake line looks to be in pretty rough shape.

Yes there was some velcro damage on it because the amount of line didn't fit in the keeper very well. Since this was after the toggle attachment (even after fixing the problem) I judged it to be of no consequence. I believe it has been set up like this for at least 15 years. I should have taken photos of the finished job - much neater with the excess fingertrapped in.

-Michael