SAVE SKYSURFING!!!

[HeatherB 0]

Well, I can appreciate your enthusiasm.

How many teams do you think will show up at Nationals this year?

[blazetailman 0]

Douva, you are at times very outspoken and very passionate about what you do. I can respect that. But, your quote below about the "fully sponsored teams" dosen't just effect you. It sounds like a statment of a martyer

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There isn’t a single U.S. skysurfing team with full sponsorship. When Arizona Airspeed and the Golden Knights qualify for Worlds, the team members aren’t expected to write personal checks for their airfare, lodging, and entry fees. Us “uncommitted” skysurfers have jobs and lives that don’t revolve around skydiving. We’re doing the best we can, and we earnestly want to be competitive at an international level, but we’re not made of money, and we can’t tell the parts of our lives that earn the income to “f**k off” every time we want to compete in a world event. I’m sorry you had a bad experience trying to get a U.S. skysurfing team to the 2004 World Meet, but I think it’s shortsighted to assume that incident indicates a lack of commitment from the skysurfing community.

EDITED TO ADD: Just so that it's clear, I don't want anyone to think I'm knocking the Knights or Airspeed or any of the RW teams. They've earned their success, and I have a great deal of respect for them. I just want people to recognize that one of the reasons RW makes a better showing than AE at Worlds each year is that RW's long track record earns it a lot of financial backing. Skysurfing doesn't have that luxury.

Guano freefly recived a call from Brian Buckland last year letting us know a slot opened up for the world meet in Brazil. We were unable to make it by our decision. We could have put our lives on hold and go, we wanted to go, but did not see as a good decision to the 2004 goals on such a short notice. It was our decision.

We are not a fully sponsored team. Maybe if we market ourselves more we might come to agreement and get some good contracts. We do the best with what we have and make every jump count.

Do you think you deserve a sponsorship?

What have you done to deserve it?

I think the sponsorship angle is null and void. If we wanted to goto Brazil, we would have found the money. I know of the crw team from Lodi placed first at the world air games. They made it happen on there dime. The South African 4way team (sorry can't remeber the year) competed and placed third and were mostly if not all DZ instructors. Little training jumps and support. They made it happend and 2 went on to be World Champions.


There are many teams that are "self funded". They compete well and some in the past have competed well against the fully funded teams. Skysurfing is not alone. Freefly, crw and some canopy fliers are paying there way.

The more you debate this the more I don't see your point. Stick to the facts of getting people involved to keep the event. Tell me what has been done to improve turn outs. Not what can be done when its easy. I could turn just a few $$$ into a lot of good jumps. anyone can. I respect your drive to keep skysurfing, but do not drag in the point of we (skysurfers)aren't supported.

THERE ARE A LOT OF TEAMS BUSTING THEIR ASSES TO DO THEIR BEST.

www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com

[gasson 0]

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Fast forward to last year. 2004.... I was the US Parachute Team Manager for Artistic Events. This meant that it was my responsibility to line up a team and get them down to Brazil for the World competition. Fine...no problem. There were 3 teams that competed in the previous US Nationals so it shouldn't be a problem to get at LEAST 1. Well.....I was wrong. Snyder/Gasson sited lack of interested because the USPA wouldn't support them financially. They would like to go....but were fed up with the lack of support (I'm paraphrasing here....there was more too it...but that was the main point)
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-Brian

If Kebe and I really wanted to go we would have found a way to get to Brazil. The main reason I chose not to go was that Brazil was chosen for the 2000 world cup and dropped the ball so Skydive AZ hosted it. The 300 way was originally planned for Brazil and it too was moved to Skydive AZ. As it turned out, a few weeks before the 2004 meet in Brazil it was cancelled and another DZ in Brazil was chosen at the last minute. I had an opportunity to go to Singapore the month before the meet on a well paid gig. Looking back, I am glad I went to Singapore instead of the competition.

[Douva 0]

I'm not going to let this turn into a pissing match about sponsorship. My point was simple and clear, but a few overly sensitive people are trying to twist it into an attack on 4-way teams. You can't expect the same "commitment" from competitors in a fringe discipline like skysurfing that you can expect from skydiving's core discipline, 4-way. 4-way has been around for decades and built a strong base of supporters and sponsors. There are a number of 4-way team members who make their livings as 4-way competitors and coaches. So of course the top competitors in a discipline like 4-way are going to have less trouble getting to the World Meet than whatever small, unknown skysurfing teams placed at Nationals.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Douva 0]

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Well, I can appreciate your enthusiasm.

How many teams do you think will show up at Nationals this year?

It's always a crapshoot. There were two new teams and one newly un-retired team last year, so it was shaping up to be a banner year; then several of the established teams didn't show up, so we were left with another small turnout and a very eclectic cross section of competitors. This year I think I'll just bring a bunch of beginner boards and talk the freefly competitors into cross-competing.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[blazetailman 0]

Douva, I think you missed the heart of my message.

If you love what you do you will make the sacrafice to make it happend.

You act like skysurfing has it harder, and you in particular have it harder. Every team needs to train, every team needs to show up to the meet and compete. Thats a given.


Douva

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"I'm not going to let this turn into a pissing match about sponsorship. My point was simple and clear, but a few overly sensitive people are trying to twist it into an attack on 4-way teams. You can't expect the same "commitment" from competitors in a fringe discipline like skysurfing that you can expect from skydiving's core discipline, 4-way. 4-way has been around for decades and built a strong base of supporters and sponsors. "

In response, one I do 4way, have been on a 4way team or 2, but currently competing in freefly. According to you a fringe event?

In regard to commintment. I expect the same commitment and discipline from my teammates as I would from a 4way team or from any team. Please don't speak for the fringe events, "artistic events" since freefly, freestyle and sky surf are all grouped together for judging, please don't even infer we don't have the same level of commitment or disipline. That is your own personal opinon, view and experience

In regard to the pissing match and sponsorship.
1. You missed the point. Reread.

2. You should have never brought it up in the argument. It has nothing to do with saving skysurf as an event at the nationals.

www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com

[blazetailman 0]

Yes, I would agree skydiving events and brazil don't mix.

Good choice Greg.

But also the group that made the event still happen, bravo for doing what it takes to still make the event happen.

www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com

[Douva 0]

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1. You missed the point. Reread.

No, you missed the point--You can't expect people who skydive for fun but earn their living outside the sport to place as high a priority on attending the World Meet as people who compete and coach for a living. THAT is why AE usually has a weaker showing than the better established events. It doesn't have anything to do with a "lack of commitment," as the instigating poster claimed. Now I refuse to let this discussion degrade any further, so please find another pot to stir.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[blazetailman 0]

Douva,

You can't end the debate of the topics when YOU brought the points up in the first place. I'm not trying to pick a fight either. But when you make inferences that AE is at a disadvantage, I disagree with you.

You think AE events are at a disadvantage to others. There are fulltime coaches for freefly. A few freefly teams that are fully sponsored. Isn't that the same as 4way.

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You can't expect people who skydive for fun but earn their living outside the sport to place as high a priority on attending the World Meet as people who compete and coach for a living. THAT is why AE usually has a weaker showing than the better established events.

Are you positive this is the reason? Are there any other reasons? And what are the better established events?

Read what you posted. You are speaking for a lot of people.

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It doesn't have anything to do with a "lack of commitment," as the instigating poster claimed.

I know, I'm the one saying that the AE competitors deserve more credit than you are giving them.


Then they would make the proper sacrafice. We all deal with our persoanl and athletic goals. Its about balance and what you value in determining your goal.

Now I'm an "instigator", no, simply debating.

www.canopyflightcenter.com
www.skydivesac.com
www.guanofreefly.com

[Douva 0]

Peter,

If you'll read the WHOLE thread, you'll see that you're not the person I referred to as an "instigator." The "instigator" was the person who said there is a "lack of commitment from the skysurfing community at a world level." I haven't said anything negative about you or your discipline, so take your hurt feelings someplace else. I'm ending this debate because you're not even debating what I said; you're debating what you think I insinuated. I never said that skysurfers aren't supported by the skydiving community or that they deserve more sponsorship. Personally, I feel VERY supported by the skydiving community, and I'm not interested in dealing with the pressures that come with sponsorship. I also never said that skysurfers and other AE competitors are at an unfair disadvantage; however, I did suggest that it is unfair to expect small, unknown, unsponsored skysurfing teams to always have as strong a showing at Worlds as the teams in more established disciplines. If you don't think that's a valid point, feel free to debate THAT point, but knock off the childish "What have you done to deserve sponsorship?" crap.

--Douva

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Ron 10]

Seems like Skysurf has two more years at the Nationals.

However, if less than 4 teams compete in an event 2 years in a row, it will be eliminated.

So Skysurf had better get folks to compete, or it is gone.

ACMESkydiver "Honestly, my husband is not licensed, but when he DOES finish his licensing (a ways off, but it will come some day) he REALLY wants to find someone to teach him to skysurf"

mailin "I've been interested in skysurfing for a long time, and look forward to trying it in a few years"

tdog "I want to tell you that I am skydiving today because I saw Troy surf in IMAX. Enouf' said!"

Get a board and go. If you don't, then you are the reason it will die.

Can't get more fair than that.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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And before you start spouting that “lack of commitment from the skysurfing community” garbage, maybe you’d better step back and look at the differences between skysurfing teams and teams in other disciplines. Look at the number of RW teams with corporate or drop zone sponsorship. There isn’t a single U.S. skysurfing team with full sponsorship. When Arizona Airspeed and the Golden Knights qualify for Worlds, the team members aren’t expected to write personal checks for their airfare, lodging, and entry fees.

Maybe you had better step back and actually know what you are talking about before you speak?

http://www.skyleague.com/pages/news/showArticles.php?story=150

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Arizona Airspeed overcame the financial difficulties to make the trip to the Makevsky Cup 2005. It was a big financial commitment for the team members, and not all of the costs could be covered by team sponsors and supporters. Eliana Rodriguez explained that the individuals had to use their own credit cards to make the trip happen.

The first place of the 8-way event will be rewarded with $11,000 prize money. However, only the registration fees for the 8-way team total already $7,300. Rodriguez added that the air fare was $1,400 per person, which brings the meet expenses up to a total of over $20,000. Even if Airspeed wins the 4-way ($7,000) and the 8-way event ($11,000) it will not be enough to cover all meet expenses, and the competition for the first places in both events will be very tight.

Fact is very few people care enough about Skysurf to put a board on. A competition should not be held in an event no one cares about.

The rule about an event going away if only 4 people show up in two years...Is good. However, I already know that people will show up in the second year just to keep it around and prolong its death.

Skysurf is dying because its dangerous. People are not that interested in it.

Like I said before, ask all the old greats why they don't do it anymore.

And this right here is THE reason that skydiving will never be "popular" like NASCAR

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ESPN dropped skysurfing because you can’t market skydiving gear to fourteen-year-old boys.

There is little to no market....Even less with Skysurf.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Douva 0]

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And before you start spouting that “lack of commitment from the skysurfing community” garbage, maybe you’d better step back and look at the differences between skysurfing teams and teams in other disciplines. Look at the number of RW teams with corporate or drop zone sponsorship. There isn’t a single U.S. skysurfing team with full sponsorship. When Arizona Airspeed and the Golden Knights qualify for Worlds, the team members aren’t expected to write personal checks for their airfare, lodging, and entry fees.

Maybe you had better step back and actually know what you are talking about before you speak?

http://www.skyleague.com/pages/news/showArticles.php?story=150

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Arizona Airspeed overcame the financial difficulties to make the trip to the Makevsky Cup 2005. It was a big financial commitment for the team members, and not all of the costs could be covered by team sponsors and supporters. Eliana Rodriguez explained that the individuals had to use their own credit cards to make the trip happen.

The first place of the 8-way event will be rewarded with $11,000 prize money. However, only the registration fees for the 8-way team total already $7,300. Rodriguez added that the air fare was $1,400 per person, which brings the meet expenses up to a total of over $20,000. Even if Airspeed wins the 4-way ($7,000) and the 8-way event ($11,000) it will not be enough to cover all meet expenses, and the competition for the first places in both events will be very tight.

Somebody already pointed this out. Obviously, in regards to the most recent World Meet, my statement was inaccurate; however, it doesn't invalidate my point about professional teams versus non-professional teams. Maybe you had better step back and actually know what the debate is about before you speak.

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Fact is very few people care enough about Skysurf to put a board on. A competition should not be held in an event no one cares about.

And yet so many people cared enough to write the board of directors and stand up for us at the USPA committee meeting.

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The rule about an event going away if only 4 people show up in two years...Is good. However, I already know that people will show up in the second year just to keep it around and prolong its death.

Skysurf is dying because its dangerous. People are not that interested in it.

Really? Do you have statistics to show that skysurf is more dangerous than other disciplines, or is this just your personal opinion?

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Like I said before, ask all the old greats why they don't do it anymore.

Of whom exactly do you speak?

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And this right here is THE reason that skydiving will never be "popular" like NASCAR

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ESPN dropped skysurfing because you can’t market skydiving gear to fourteen-year-old boys.

There is little to no market....Even less with Skysurf.

Darn.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Ron 10]

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Somebody already pointed this out. Obviously, in regards to the most recent World Meet, my statement was inaccurate; however, it doesn't invalidate my point about professional teams versus non-professional teams. Maybe you had better step back and actually know what the debate is about before you speak.

Oh, I see you open your mouth and say something wrong, and *I* should step back before making a comment?

Funny.

And your *point* about professional vs no-professional...So you are saying there are no professional skysurf teams? Ever wonder why? Very few people care and there is little to no benefit to having one. They DID exist, but they provided no benefit to the DZ.

Some say that sponsoring an RW team has very little benefit, but those coaches bring people to the DZ to jump. By organizing (Which surfers can't really do), coaching (which is really hard to do when no one is trying to learn it), and holding events (Which if no one is doing the event its hard to hold an event). Skysurfing has VERY little benefit to a DZO.

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And yet so many people cared enough to write the board of directors and stand up for us at the USPA committee meeting.

And if those people really cared...Then this would not be an issue. Skysurf would not be in a death spiral as an event. Lets see if those same people step up and strap on a board.

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Really? Do you have statistics to show that skysurf is more dangerous than other disciplines, or is this just your personal opinion?

How is strapping a piece of wood on your feet safer than not having that piece of wood?

Thats simple logic there.

Ask around....Why are the best not doing it anymore?

Cause what you have is a difficult, dangerous aspect of the sport that is hard to get into and the "best" don't do it anymore either.

Why?

Answer that question and the reasons why skysurf is not popular are the same.

I see you want to keep your aspect...I can only assume so you can win a medal...Whatever your reasons are I don't care. But you could Skysurf all day without it being at the Nationals.

The aspect of the sport is dying. That is a simple fact.

Your attacks on anyone that does not agree or support you are hurting you even more.

Find out why it is dying and then maybe you can change it....Begging to keep it in the Nationals is going to do NOTHING to keep the sport alive as seen by the fact it has been in the Nationals and STILL is shrinking.

You need to find out WHY it is dying, not just try and keep doing CPR, or keeping it around just so you can medal does nothing to save it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Douva 0]

Ron, this conversation is beginning to bore me, and you're beginning to annoy me. I think I'll find a more productive use for my time.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Ron 10]

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Ron, this conversation is beginning to bore me, and you're beginning to annoy me. I think I'll find a more productive use for my time.

Well I find you attacking anyone that does not support you to be kinda petty.

You NEVER answer questions and jump all over anyone that does not support you.

You want a medal? Fine, but don't claim to be trying to save Skysurfing for the betterment of the sport.

There are plenty of ways to save skysurfing that don't involve you getting a medal. And if you REALLY cared about the sport you would be trying to get people interested in it. Fact is that the Nationals is not going to save it since it IS at the Nationals and it is STILL dying.

So if you really wanted to save it you would be looking at how to make it popular, not just trying to make it so you can medal.

Saving Skysurf at Nationals is your quest to win a gold, not to save the sport.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Douva 0]

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Ron, this conversation is beginning to bore me, and you're beginning to annoy me. I think I'll find a more productive use for my time.

Well I find you attacking anyone that does not support you to be kinda petty.

You NEVER answer questions and jump all over anyone that does not support you.

You want a medal? Fine, but don't claim to be trying to save Skysurfing for the betterment of the sport.

There are plenty of ways to save skysurfing that don't involve you getting a medal. And if you REALLY cared about the sport you would be trying to get people interested in it. Fact is that the Nationals is not going to save it since it IS at the Nationals and it is STILL dying.

So if you really wanted to save it you would be looking at how to make it popular, not just trying to make it so you can medal.

Saving Skysurf at Nationals is your quest to win a gold, not to save the sport.

Ron,

Rather than arguing the facts, you choose to question my motives and impugn my integrity. Please tell me what questions I've failed to answer, and I'll happily answer them. Please let me know who I attacked for simply failing to support me, and I'll apologize. Otherwise, please take your petty personal attacks (saying I'm doing all this to win a medal and don't really care about skysurfing is a personal attack) back to the Speakers Corner where they belong.

--Douva

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Ron 10]

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Rather than arguing the facts, you choose to question my motives and impugn my integrity

You have not brought any facts. You tried to play on emotion:

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"To drop skysurfing from U.S. competition simply because it doesn't draw the dozens of teams each year that the other disciplines do dishonors the memories of the Rob Harris, Vic Pappadato, Jerry Loftis, and all of those who came before."

"Even if you don't see how this could possibly affect you, a non-skysurfer, please think of the history and heritage of skysurfing and what it has meant to the sport of skydiving"

"And please think about the skydivers, past and present, whose hard work and dedication will be lost forever if skysurfing disappears from U.S. competition."

"USPA is considering dropping a discipline that has probably done as much for the image and popularity of skydiving as any in the sport’s history--That’s not right! "

These were all nothing more than plays on emotion.

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Please tell me what questions I've failed to answer, and I'll happily answer them

OK

1. How will getting rid of the category hurt skydiving's exposure to whuffos? Whuffos don't even know there is such a thing as Nationals. The USPA isn't trying to prevent people from using skysurfing in TV ads and movies.

2. You don't have enough teams to compete, and you're not drawing a bunch of new teams. Why would you keep it on a venue?

3. How good can you really feel about placing 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in a field of 4?

4. Why has skysurfing dwindled in popularity? you said "If skysurfing is to survive, it needs competitions to drive it." Its already at the Nationals, and its still dying...so how is just having it at the Nationals gonna save it when its not working now?

5. Explain to me how one competiton that last year had only 4 people not being around will destroy the USPA?

6. Why don't some of your "Worlds Best" why they don't compete anymore? Sure I can raddle off a list of skysurfers....but how many of them are actively training as a team and are promoting their discipline?

7. How many new teams do you know of?

8. Why is skysurf so unpopular with skydivers? You claim they all love it, but then why are so few doing it?

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Neither is accuracy. You don't have to scrap something just because it isn't new and trendy.

True Style and ACC is not sexy...But last year they had:

27 people in Mens open...That alone is 19 more that ALL of Skysurf.
5 in Womens Open
only 2 in Int ACC...So get rid of it.

But together it was 34 people and thats 26 more than skysurf.

In fact Acc *just last year* had more people than the last THREE YEARS of skysurf.

So far the only good reason was given by Steve and ltdiver...to select the US team...But that has been the ONLY good reason given to support a Competition for a sport that has so few people.

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Please let me know who I attacked for simply failing to support me, and I'll apologize.

"I haven't said anything negative about you or your discipline, so take your hurt feelings someplace else"

"My point was simple and clear, but a few overly sensitive people are trying to twist it into an attack on 4-way teams"

"find another pot to stir"

"If you don't think that's a valid point, feel free to debate THAT point, but knock off the childish "What have you done to deserve sponsorship?" crap."

"And before you start spouting that “lack of commitment from the skysurfing community” garbage, maybe you’d better step back and look at the differences between skysurfing teams and teams in other disciplines."

"Maybe you had better step back and actually know what the debate is about before you speak."

"Ron, this conversation is beginning to bore me, and you're beginning to annoy me."

You have attacked anyone that brings up points you don't want to answer.

You think I have a hard on against skysurf? Nope, I just don't see the point of keeping a competition alive that almost nobody cares about.

I have asked several questions about why do you think it is important, and I never get answers or I get emotional pleas.

Give me a reason, other than emotion and other than to select the US team, to keep skysurf as an event at the Nationals.

I even tried to help...I asked you to find out why people are not doing it...Cause simple fact if you had 20 teams you would never be at risk of getting dropped from Nationals.

Cause the simple fact is just keeping it at the Nationals is not working to save it. Its there now and it is still dying. You are trying to fix the symptom, not the disease.

You need to find out WHY it is not popular to do, and try to make it popular....Then if 20 teams show up it will never be at risk of dying.

You comment about beginer boards and freefliers is a good start....But I'd get them to try it before Nationals...I'm serious, its a good idea.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jmpwme 0]

Can't we all just get along???

I must say, having made a skysurf (which scared the *&% out of me while Kathee was sit flying next to me laughing her butt off - I never did successfully stand up on that damn thing), having filmed it in some very bad situations and having done 4way where collisions can get people hurt (see bobo broken arm), Skysurf is more dangerous. The board adds a factor that does not exist in other events. Is that why people quit doing it - you'd have to ask those that retired. Personally - I'd speculate that younger skysurfers stop early because its hard to do and/or they had one or two good scares. Cutting away the board is enough to get your heart pumping (No, I did not have to cut it away!!!!). Experienced Skysurfers - the "danger" is likely not why they stopped. Injury in some cases, frustration in others and just plain "moving on to other things" in most.

I do agree with Ron's post above regarding new skysurfers. The rules have been set and they are fair given the universal application. Lets focus the energy in the direction of bringing the sport back to life.

Steve

[Ron 10]

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Skysurf is more dangerous. The board adds a factor that does not exist in other events.

And that is why I think its not popular. Someone on here touched on that before FF became popular it was the alternative to RW....Well now with FF being "cool", why risk a board.

BTW I never have jumped a board, cause I frankly didn't think the risk was worth it. I think a ton of folks think the same way....Problem is I can't think of a way to make it safer. This keeps people from trying it.

I think its probley harder than flat or freeflying..that does not help get people who do try it stay in it.

Its not very social.

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Experienced Skysurfers - the "danger" is likely not why they stopped. Injury in some cases, frustration in others and just plain "moving on to other things" in most.

There is one top 4way guy that is 43 and still doing 4way....There are guys that have been doing 4way/8way for 10+ years....Why does skysurf loose them and not RW?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Douva 0]

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Rather than arguing the facts, you choose to question my motives and impugn my integrity

You have not brought any facts. You tried to play on emotion:

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"To drop skysurfing from U.S. competition simply because it doesn't draw the dozens of teams each year that the other disciplines do dishonors the memories of the Rob Harris, Vic Pappadato, Jerry Loftis, and all of those who came before."

"Even if you don't see how this could possibly affect you, a non-skysurfer, please think of the history and heritage of skysurfing and what it has meant to the sport of skydiving"

"And please think about the skydivers, past and present, whose hard work and dedication will be lost forever if skysurfing disappears from U.S. competition."

"USPA is considering dropping a discipline that has probably done as much for the image and popularity of skydiving as any in the sport’s history--That’s not right! "

These were all nothing more than plays on emotion.

What’s your point? I don’t see anything wrong with asking people to consider skysurfing’s positive impact on the sport of skydiving when debating whether or not skysurfing deserves more time to rebuild.

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Please tell me what questions I've failed to answer, and I'll happily answer them

OK

1. How will getting rid of the category hurt skydiving's exposure to whuffos? Whuffos don't even know there is such a thing as Nationals. The USPA isn't trying to prevent people from using skysurfing in TV ads and movies.

I’ve already answered this question:

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The USPA has sunk a lot of money into trying to get media coverage for Nationals over the next two years. I can almost guarantee you the first thing the news networks are going to ask for when it comes times to air clips--They’re going to want to see footage of some maniac with a board strapped to his feet spinning like an out-of-control ceiling fan because that’s the image of competitive skydiving the general public knows.

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If skysurfing is to survive, it needs competitions to drive it.

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Four months ago a reporter and photographer from the Austin American-Statesman's XLENT weekly news magazine were out at Skydive San Marcos doing a cover story on skydiving. After seeing Brains and me land from a training jump, they made the spur-of-the-moment decision to do a seperate full page story on L.A.S.T. and skysurfing in general. Our drop zone and the entire sport of skydiving got a little extra coverage because WHUFFO'S DIG SKYSURFING! It's a great tool for drawing new people into the sport of skydiving.

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2. You don't have enough teams to compete, and you're not drawing a bunch of new teams. Why would you keep it on a venue?

Jmpwme answered this question quite nicely:

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Now - as to the question, droping an event for lack of participation creates a bad precedent. If this happens, does it mean that Women's 4-way teams from the US will be next? There will likely only be 3 or 4 of them at Nationals in open. USPA has been fighting for their elimination as well. Granted, this is not apples and apples, but lets not allow the camel's nose under the tent.

So long as IPC has skysurf as an event, the US should field a team. Of course, those who qualify should attend these international meets. THis failure serves only to give USPA another hammer to nail the skysurf coffin shut.

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3. How good can you really feel about placing 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in a field of 4?

You’re the only one who seems to be hung up on medals and placing. Those of us supporting skysurfing just want to see it survive.

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4. Why has skysurfing dwindled in popularity? you said "If skysurfing is to survive, it needs competitions to drive it." Its already at the Nationals, and its still dying...so how is just having it at the Nationals gonna save it when its not working now?

I already answered this question in detail:

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Here is a brief breakdown of the rise and fall of skysurfing:

When the X-Games came along and made skysurfing the first lucrative skydiving discipline for competitors, everybody and their camera-flying grandmother got a board and started looking for sponsors. When the X-Games dropped skysurfing, a lot of people’s interest disappeared with the cash prizes.

For a short time skysurfing was looked at as the macho alternative to freestyle, but free flying revolutionized “alternative” body flight, and skysurfing lost its macho, anti-belly flying appeal.

The final and I feel most damaging blow to skysurfing was the loss of most of the sport’s pioneers during its early days. Patrick de Gayardon (first skysurfer), Jerry Loftis (first American skysurfer, founder of Surf Flite), Rob Harris (first American to win the world championship, first X-Games gold medalist, arguably the best skysurfer ever), and Vic Pappadato (Troy Hartman’s teammate/camera flyer, gold medalist in the second X-Games) all died between 1995 and 1998 (all within 5 years of the first skysurfing competition). Of these four, only Jerry Loftis died in a skysurfing related accident.

Where would free flying be today if people like Olav Zipser and Omar Alhegelan hadn’t been around to see it brought to fruition? Skysurfing is not an outdated discipline like style and accuracy; it just needs time to rebuild after these unfortunate setbacks. One of the hurdles in rebuilding is the lack of qualified coaches around the country. I’ve talked to a number of skydivers at boogies and online who would like to learn to skysurf but have nobody to teach them. Those of us still performing chest compressions on this discipline are trying to make training available and get more jumpers qualified to coach skysurfing, but it takes time.

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5. Explain to me how one competiton that last year had only 4 people not being around will destroy the USPA?

I never said it would.

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6. Why don't some of your "Worlds Best" why they don't compete anymore? Sure I can raddle off a list of skysurfers....but how many of them are actively training as a team and are promoting their discipline?

How many competitors who competed in any discipline ten years ago are still competing? It’s not because the older skysurfers don’t care about or support skysurfing; it’s because they did their time, made their marks, and moved on, like most skydivers do.

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7. How many new teams do you know of?

I already answered this question:

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There were two new teams and one newly un-retired team last year…

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8. Why is skysurf so unpopular with skydivers? You claim they all love it, but then why are so few doing it?

AGAIN, I already answered this question:

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One of the hurdles in rebuilding is the lack of qualified coaches around the country. I’ve talked to a number of skydivers at boogies and online who would like to learn to skysurf but have nobody to teach them. Those of us still performing chest compressions on this discipline are trying to make training available and get more jumpers qualified to coach skysurfing, but it takes time.

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Please let me know who I attacked for simply failing to support me, and I'll apologize.

"I haven't said anything negative about you or your discipline, so take your hurt feelings someplace else"

"My point was simple and clear, but a few overly sensitive people are trying to twist it into an attack on 4-way teams"

"find another pot to stir"

Those aren’t attacks. I never said anything bad about 4-way, so their emotional, condescending defenses of 4-way were unnecessary to the discussion at hand. My comments might have been a little harsh, but they certainly weren’t attacks.

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"If you don't think that's a valid point, feel free to debate THAT point, but knock off the childish "What have you done to deserve sponsorship?" crap."

Asking me what I’ve done to deserve sponsorship, when I never once suggested I deserved sponsorship, was childish. Asking him to cease that immature line of questioning isn’t the same as attacking him for disagreeing with me.

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"And before you start spouting that “lack of commitment from the skysurfing community” garbage, maybe you’d better step back and look at the differences between skysurfing teams and teams in other disciplines."

Explain to me exactly how that’s an attack.

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"Maybe you had better step back and actually know what the debate is about before you speak."

That was quoted almost word-for-word from the post you made telling me “Maybe you had better step back and actually know what you are talking about before you speak?”

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"Ron, this conversation is beginning to bore me, and you're beginning to annoy me."

That’s not an attack; that’s the truth. This conversation is going nowhere, and you seem hell bent on putting down skysurfing and me, regardless of what I say.

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You have attacked anyone that brings up points you don't want to answer.

Really? Because I think I just used quotes from my previous posts to show that all of your “unanswered” questions were already answered. I think I also showed that I didn’t attack anybody. I was, however, justifiably condescending to a couple of people, such as yourself, who chose to impugn the integrity of skysurfers, our dedication to our discipline, and our motivation for keeping it in Nationals.

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You think I have a hard on against skysurf? Nope, I just don't see the point of keeping a competition alive that almost nobody cares about.

Well, those “almost nobodies” just made enough noise to convince the USPA to keep skysurfing in Nationals for another year. And despite all your jabs and accusations, that’s really all that matters.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Ron 10]

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What’s your point? I don’t see anything wrong with asking people to consider skysurfing’s positive impact on the sport of skydiving when debating whether or not skysurfing deserves more time to rebuild.

Simple, you have only used emotion, and nothing of sustanance to support your position.

The ONLY good argument has been US team selection...And we didn't even send a team in 2004.

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1. How will getting rid of the category hurt skydiving's exposure to whuffos? Whuffos don't even know there is such a thing as Nationals. The USPA isn't trying to prevent people from using skysurfing in TV ads and movies.

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I’ve already answered this question:


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The USPA has sunk a lot of money into trying to get media coverage for Nationals over the next two years. I can almost guarantee you the first thing the news networks are going to ask for when it comes times to air clips--They’re going to want to see footage of some maniac with a board strapped to his feet spinning like an out-of-control ceiling fan because that’s the image of competitive skydiving the general public knows.

It has not worked yet...In fact less people IN the sport care about surfing than before. Whuffos interest is better gained by James Bond movies than any aspect of the sport...You said it yourself they can't sell skydiving gear to 14 year olds.

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2. You don't have enough teams to compete, and you're not drawing a bunch of new teams. Why would you keep it on a venue?

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Jmpwme answered this question quite nicely:


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Now - as to the question, droping an event for lack of participation creates a bad precedent. If this happens, does it mean that Women's 4-way teams from the US will be next? There will likely only be 3 or 4 of them at Nationals in open. USPA has been fighting for their elimination as well. Granted, this is not apples and apples, but lets not allow the camel's nose under the tent.

So long as IPC has skysurf as an event, the US should field a team. Of course, those who qualify should attend these international meets. THis failure serves only to give USPA another hammer to nail the skysurf coffin shut.

Nonsense. 4 way womans had more competitors than skysurf anyway. ALSO the USPA does not hold an event to select the "womans" team...They do the regular event, so there is no extra anything. The USPA does not give womans 4way medals.

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3. How good can you really feel about placing 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in a field of 4?

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You’re the only one who seems to be hung up on medals and placing. Those of us supporting skysurfing just want to see it survive.

your energy would be better spent not trying to get the USPA to support Nationals...You don't seem to get it...It HAS BEEN IN THE NATIONALS AND IT IS STILL DYING. Doing what has been done is not going to save it...."If you always do what you have always done you will always get whet you have always gotten".

You need to do something else if you plan on saving skysurf, not beg to keep it at an event where only 4 teams bother to show.

Try getting sponsorship to give the top skysurf team 10 grand....Then people will come, but unless you do something else just trying to keep it at the Nats does NOTHING.

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4. Why has skysurfing dwindled in popularity? you said "If skysurfing is to survive, it needs competitions to drive it." Its already at the Nationals, and its still dying...so how is just having it at the Nationals gonna save it when its not working now?

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I already answered this question in detail:


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Here is a brief breakdown of the rise and fall of skysurfing:

When the X-Games came along and made skysurfing the first lucrative skydiving discipline for competitors, everybody and their camera-flying grandmother got a board and started looking for sponsors. When the X-Games dropped skysurfing, a lot of people’s interest disappeared with the cash prizes.

For a short time skysurfing was looked at as the macho alternative to freestyle, but free flying revolutionized “alternative” body flight, and skysurfing lost its macho, anti-belly flying appeal.

The final and I feel most damaging blow to skysurfing was the loss of most of the sport’s pioneers during its early days. Patrick de Gayardon (first skysurfer), Jerry Loftis (first American skysurfer, founder of Surf Flite), Rob Harris (first American to win the world championship, first X-Games gold medalist, arguably the best skysurfer ever), and Vic Pappadato (Troy Hartman’s teammate/camera flyer, gold medalist in the second X-Games) all died between 1995 and 1998 (all within 5 years of the first skysurfing competition). Of these four, only Jerry Loftis died in a skysurfing related accident.

Where would free flying be today if people like Olav Zipser and Omar Alhegelan hadn’t been around to see it brought to fruition? Skysurfing is not an outdated discipline like style and accuracy; it just needs time to rebuild after these unfortunate setbacks. One of the hurdles in rebuilding is the lack of qualified coaches around the country. I’ve talked to a number of skydivers at boogies and online who would like to learn to skysurf but have nobody to teach them. Those of us still performing chest compressions on this discipline are trying to make training available and get more jumpers qualified to coach skysurfing, but it takes time.

That didn't answer ANYTHING...WHY IS THE SPORT NOT POPULAR AND WHAT WILL YOU DO TO MAKE IT POPULAR. We have shown that keeping it at the Nationals does NOTHING.

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6. Why don't some of your "Worlds Best" why they don't compete anymore? Sure I can raddle off a list of skysurfers....but how many of them are actively training as a team and are promoting their discipline?

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How many competitors who competed in any discipline ten years ago are still competing? It’s not because the older skysurfers don’t care about or support skysurfing; it’s because they did their time, made their marks, and moved on, like most skydivers do.

Well lets look at the top teams in 4way shall we?

Hoover has been on the RW team for 11 years.

Pete Allum has been competing since 1985

Dan Brodsky-Chenfield 1983

Joey Jones 1995

Shannon Pilcher 1992

Gary Smith 1987

Solly Williams 1987

ALL of these folks were at the Nationals this past year.

How many skysurf folks have been doing it 10 years? If not, then why?

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8. Why is skysurf so unpopular with skydivers? You claim they all love it, but then why are so few doing it?

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AGAIN, I already answered this question:


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One of the hurdles in rebuilding is the lack of qualified coaches around the country. I’ve talked to a number of skydivers at boogies and online who would like to learn to skysurf but have nobody to teach them. Those of us still performing chest compressions on this discipline are trying to make training available and get more jumpers qualified to coach skysurfing, but it takes time.

You didn't answer...You said why its hard to rebuild, but you never answere WHY IT NEEDED TO BE REBUILT. If it was popular it would never have needed to be rebuilt.

WHY IS IT NOT POPULAR?

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"Maybe you had better step back and actually know what the debate is about before you speak."

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That was quoted almost word-for-word from the post you made telling me “Maybe you had better step back and actually know what you are talking about before you speak?”

Which was a reply to your word for word to "And before you start spouting that “lack of commitment from the skysurfing community” garbage, maybe you’d better step back and look at the differences between skysurfing teams and teams in other disciplines. "

So I just used your own words when you claimed something that was wrong.

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"Ron, this conversation is beginning to bore me, and you're beginning to annoy me."

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That’s not an attack; that’s the truth. This conversation is going nowhere, and you seem hell bent on putting down skysurfing and me, regardless of what I say.

Well it IS an attack, but not like I care from you.

But you think I am slamming Surfing? Nope, you just don't bring one non-emotional fact to back up your pleas.

If skysurf dissapeared the USPA and whuffos would not care. The proof is that the sport is dying anyway while other disciplines are growing.

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Really? Because I think I just used quotes from my previous posts to show that all of your “unanswered” questions were already answered. I think I also showed that I didn’t attack anybody. I was, however, justifiably condescending to a couple of people, such as yourself, who chose to impugn the integrity of skysurfers, our dedication to our discipline, and our motivation for keeping it in Nationals.

You didn't answer the questions. You did attack people...I never said anything bad about skysurfers...find ONE quote where I said something bad about skysurfers...go ahead hero look. I said the sport is dying (which it is) and that your attempt to "save it" does NOTHING to save it.

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Well, those “almost nobodies” just made enough noise to convince the USPA to keep skysurfing in Nationals for another year. And despite all your jabs and accusations, that’s really all that matters.

BTW I like several former skysurfers....They quit for a number of reasons...None of them was because the USPA was gonna kill it at Nationals...In fact the USPA IS gonna kill it since people don't care about it.

You would be better served trying to get people to care....But lots of people before you have tried and not attacked people who disagreed....They could not do it, so your abrasive attitude sure aint gonna do it.

You passion is good...But if all you plan on doing is begging for the USPA to keep it for mercy....you are lost.

Good luck getting a medal...I mean that. I don't wish you ill will. I just think your push to save the sport is doomed if the best you can do is beg to keep it around.

And your approach is not helping you any.

Anyway you have two years.....I'd get to work or this is all wasted.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Remster 30]

Ok Ron, Douva, we all got your respective points about 10 posts earlier.

Remster

[jmpwme 0]

Ron -

I think my point with respect to Women's 4-way is being taken a bit out of context in your response and perhaps by Douva's use of it in his response to you.

The points you raise are correct, which you know that I already know. BUT - I stand by the analogy. I raised that issue by way of the USPA sanctioning a team for an IPC event and the precedent that removing Skysurf could set with respect to that. I also stand by my point that in Open, there were not a lot of all women's teams. Given USPA's thinking I can very much see them using the new 4 team rule to apply to "sanctioning". As you and I both know, the women have been fighting a tough battle as well, a battle which they are deservedly winning. I simply did not want to provide any additional ammo to USPA in that regard.

With respect to why Skysurfers leave the sport - its hard to draw a comparision. As has been debated in this thread, there are very few skysurfers in comparision to other disciplines. It just so happens that with respect to the more experienced ones, I know (or can reasonable guess) why they quit. That said - when people retire from 4 way or from skydiving in general, why do they quit? Are their answers any different? I suspect across the board, they are basically the same.

Steve

[HydroGuy 0]

Whuffos don't go to Nationals. Whuffos don't even know what Nationals are. So whether 2 or 4 people actually show up and compete at Nationals or the USPA cans the event, the impact of skysurfing and its effects on the whuffo public will in essence be unchanged.

Seriously, if only 2 or 4 people who participate in the activity care enough about it to show up and compete, I don't see the point of continuing the competition myself.

Then again, I could probably piss everyone off and ask why there are any competitions in the first place? I didn't know that skydiving was about awards and medals, but everyone has their own motivations and desires I guess.....

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary