Should people be banned for doing hookturns in certain places?

[CrazyL 0]

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Yep, I liked it there.

Banned from ELSINORE???


~d00d!

Was too easy

[tetra316 0]

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That's sounds quite f**ked up right there! Why the hell was the body left there for 3 hours anyways!

It’s not the DZ’s call. The body will stay put until the coroner is done with his/her investigation. It’s that way with a fatality in a car wreck a plane crash etc.

Sparky

My disbelief is more towards the fact that they are putting up loads while the body is still laying in the landing area. Couldn't they at least wait till it was removed out of respect??

[chuckakers 425]

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The first part of my screen name was earned for doing hookturns back in 1992, where were you?

At Houston Skydiving Center (now Skydive Houston) hookin' & swoopin'!

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[billvon 2,989]

It's become pretty clear that the topic you want to discuss is "should I have been banned for doing X" instead of "should X be banned." I have therefore changed the subject line to make it clearer what the thread is about.

[Andy9o8 2]

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That's sounds quite f**ked up right there! Why the hell was the body left there for 3 hours anyways!

It’s not the DZ’s call. The body will stay put until the coroner is done with his/her investigation. It’s that way with a fatality in a car wreck a plane crash etc.

Sparky

My disbelief is more towards the fact that they are putting up loads while the body is still laying in the landing area. Couldn't they at least wait till it was removed out of respect??

My feelings exactly. Pretty appalling.

[NickDG 23]

Hey Larry,

Were you banned or grounded?

Banned, to me, would mean kicked off the DZ while grounded just means they keep you off the planes, in their eyes, to teach you some kind of lesson. If it's the latter welcome to the club as back in the day groundings were handed out like candy at Elsinore and everywhere else. These days, low pulls, intentional and otherwise, are negated by AADs and hook turns are semi-acceptable (the two main reasons for groundings) so most groundings nowadays stem from behavioral issues.

I never thought I'd be around long enough to see it come to this as it used to be you could be as whack as you wanted on the ground as long as you had your stuff together in the sky. Now it's sort of the other way around. And sometimes it seems we are becoming a bunch of little pansy-ass conformists.

Don't fret too much though I've seen many DZOs come and go at Elsinore since the 1970s and except for the occasional flood that DZ remains. And I see all the DZOs since Larry Perkins as merely temporary custodians of a great tradition. When Jim Wallace, who I consider a good friend, ran Elsinore he changed the name of the place to "Jim Wallace Skydiving" and I went off on him. I actually told him, "Man, you got some balls, Jim." And looking back I made way too big a deal out of it but at the time I saw it as outright heresy. And Jim good-naturedly reminds me of it to this day.

My point (yes, I'm coming to one) is any trouble I've got into in this sport has always been of my own making. And it's never over the initial thing, it's my big mouth getting into gear after the thing.

I was at the Perrine Bridge and a woman who jumped a few minutes prior turned an ankle and I thought damn now we are going to have to carry her out. But someone called in the helicopter to medivac her. But what I thought would be a quick scoop and go turned into a 45 minute ordeal and in the end they didn't even take her. However, before they left I was alone on the bridge, got tired of waiting, and jumped.

And I got a big ration of shit over it. "Couldn't you wait?" "Do you only think about yourself" And all of a sudden guys half my age and B.A.S.E. jumping a month are calling me a rotten greedy bastard.

And I flipped out saying, "WTF are you morons talking about? There's no fucking rules in B.A.S.E. jumping!" And it just rolled up into a ball after that. But all I had to do was keep my trap shut and it would have been quickly forgotten.

So Larry, my point is, maybe you're making the same mistake? You've been around long enough to know how these things work. You're it only until the next guy pushes Alex or John's button. And that's the mistake you made. It wasn't swooping it was putting yourself in the line of fire of a frustrated DZO who for a few moments hated the living guts of all skydivers . . .

NickD

[phoenixlpr 0]

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My disbelief is more towards the fact that they are putting up loads while the body is still laying in the landing area. Couldn't they at least wait till it was removed out of respect??

Can you give more tribute to the deceased than fly over than land safely?

[LadiDadi 0]

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I don't teach students, i'm not their example of how to land a parachute.

Every single skydiver teaches every single student.

Don't you see us students standing out there with sore necks and squinting into the sun to watch you do what it is you do so well?

I'm not saying that you should be banned for what you do, or have done. Not at all. It isn't my call to make so it's none of my business.

BUT - Please don't ever think that simply because you are not an instructor that you aren't setting an example for students. I hope - and believe - that the vast, vast majority of students are smart enough to listen to their instructors and to not try some of the wacky shit you do. I also believe that if some student with 5 jumps tries a hook turn and drills himself 10 feet into the ground that it's his fault and not yours. Stupidity would have gotten him one way or another; parachute or no parachute; Crazy Larry or no Crazy Larry.

A large number of people are always going to be fascinated by what you do. Fascinated because it appeals to them or fascinated because it scares the shit out of them. When a student (or anyone else) asks how to do a hook turn, rather than shut them down or refuse to answer, it only builds mystery and appeal. How about talk to them on why do do them, how hook turns are used in competitions, how hook turns can turn deadly in even the most experienced hands, how you learned to do them and from who, why you love them so much, etc. If you answer a question that wasn't asked but is closely related, most people never catch on.

Just one student's thoughts...

If you can't laugh at yourself, I'll be happy to do it for you.
****************************
Be like the cupcake and suck it up.

[peregrinerose 0]

This was an extremely well worded post. Nice job, Sprinkles

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[phoenixlpr 0]

You are only one who can keep yourself alive.

I would not complain about others' influence.

[peregrinerose 0]

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You are only one who can keep yourself alive.

I would not complain about others' influence.

She is well aware of that. But experienced jumpers sometimes forget that they are role models (both good and bad) to inexperienced jumpers. That's just how the world works, and not just in skydiving. It's nice to see a young jumper remind the rest of us of that sometimes, and she's got a good head on her shoulders (at least from her posts here) to make educated decisions. Not all are so wise.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[LadiDadi 0]

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You are only one who can keep yourself alive.

I would not complain about others' influence

To repeat:

I also believe that if some student with 5 jumps tries a hook turn and drills himself 10 feet into the ground that it's his fault and not yours. Stupidity would have gotten him one way or another; parachute or no parachute; Crazy Larry or no Crazy Larry.

I am totally and completely responsible for myself. Nothing about what I wrote was a 'complaint' and never once have I complained about the influence of others. If it weren't for the influence of others, I would have never tried skydiving.

Not one single person in this world is responsible for my behavior, choices, decisions, actions, etc. I am not responsible for any other person on this planet. My point was that it is naive to think that you are skydiving in a vacuum; that the things you do and say have no importance to students - or other well experienced skydivers - there. It doesn't make you responsible for the things they choose to do.

If there was no influence from one skydiver to the next then one solitary moron would have jumped out of a balloon once and that would be the end of that. Instead there is a whole world of morons jumping out of planes, balloons, helicopters or off anything tall enough.

No shirking of responsibility from me. No complaints from me.

(except maybe about being called 'Sprinkles' - you *said* you'd only do that in private!!! )

If you can't laugh at yourself, I'll be happy to do it for you.
****************************
Be like the cupcake and suck it up.

[peregrinerose 0]

You did say I was the only one that could get away with it.... just for that, I'll let you call me Jenny. But just ONCE

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Butters 0]

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Every single skydiver teaches every single student.

Every single student can learn from every single skydiver but not every single skydiver teaches every single student.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[phoenixlpr 0]

To repeat:

I saw quite a lot of students and skydiving morons in the last 10 years.

Students are in really good hands, but the 100 jumps wonders can hurt themselves easily.

[airtwardo 7]

~ And I see all the DZOs since Larry Perkins as merely temporary custodians of a great tradition.

A-M E N !

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[CrazyL 0]

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It's become pretty clear that the topic you want to discuss is "should I have been banned for doing X" instead of "should X be banned." I have therefore changed the subject line to make it clearer what the thread is about.

This thread was intended to be about exactly what the title said. As threads continue to be posted on, tangents happen, posters stray from the thread title. Sorry. Along with the new title I still would like to have discussion about 'Should hookturns be banned'. People get banned no doubt. The hookturn is still there. Person alleviated , problem not alleviated.

[CrazyL 0]

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Hey Larry,

Were you banned or grounded?

Banned, to me, would mean kicked off the DZ while grounded just means they keep you off the planes, in their eyes, to teach you some kind of lesson. If it's the latter welcome to the club as back in the day groundings were handed out like candy at Elsinore and everywhere else. These days, low pulls, intentional and otherwise, are negated by AADs and hook turns are semi-acceptable (the two main reasons for groundings) so most groundings nowadays stem from behavioral issues.

I never thought I'd be around long enough to see it come to this as it used to be you could be as whack as you wanted on the ground as long as you had your stuff together in the sky. Now it's sort of the other way around. And sometimes it seems we are becoming a bunch of little pansy-ass conformists.

Don't fret too much though I've seen many DZOs come and go at Elsinore since the 1970s and except for the occasional flood that DZ remains. And I see all the DZOs since Larry Perkins as merely temporary custodians of a great tradition. When Jim Wallace, who I consider a good friend, ran Elsinore he changed the name of the place to "Jim Wallace Skydiving" and I went off on him. I actually told him, "Man, you got some balls, Jim." And looking back I made way too big a deal out of it but at the time I saw it as outright heresy. And Jim good-naturedly reminds me of it to this day.

My point (yes, I'm coming to one) is any trouble I've got into in this sport has always been of my own making. And it's never over the initial thing, it's my big mouth getting into gear after the thing.

I was at the Perrine Bridge and a woman who jumped a few minutes prior turned an ankle and I thought damn now we are going to have to carry her out. But someone called in the helicopter to medivac her. But what I thought would be a quick scoop and go turned into a 45 minute ordeal and in the end they didn't even take her. However, before they left I was alone on the bridge, got tired of waiting, and jumped.

And I got a big ration of shit over it. "Couldn't you wait?" "Do you only think about yourself" And all of a sudden guys half my age and B.A.S.E. jumping a month are calling me a rotten greedy bastard.

And I flipped out saying, "WTF are you morons talking about? There's no fucking rules in B.A.S.E. jumping!" And it just rolled up into a ball after that. But all I had to do was keep my trap shut and it would have been quickly forgotten.

So Larry, my point is, maybe you're making the same mistake? You've been around long enough to know how these things work. You're it only until the next guy pushes Alex or John's button. And that's the mistake you made. It wasn't swooping it was putting yourself in the line of fire of a frustrated DZO who for a few moments hated the living guts of all skydivers . . .

NickD

You can be my translator as a few others have. Hammo's words " you are not welcome here any longer" . Now John D. did ground a fella that same day for crossing the crime scene line. He was grounded for the day.

[CrazyL 0]

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The first part of my screen name was earned for doing hookturns back in 1992, where were you?

At Houston Skydiving Center (now Skydive Houston) hookin' & swoopin'!

I bet you were, and going to grateful dead concerts!

[CrazyL 0]

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My disbelief is more towards the fact that they are putting up loads while the body is still laying in the landing area. Couldn't they at least wait till it was removed out of respect??

Can you give more tribute to the deceased than fly over than land safely?

Besides my little problem at Elsinore, they did do a tribute of sorts. At the funeral the dzm was dressed to party along with a few of his cronies they were dressed for a luau type party. Many military personnel were there in dress uniform, many police, many friends and family dressed proper for the occasion. Remember this fella had 2 kids and a wife left behind. At the dz it ended up that the wife did her first tandem jump spreading her husbands ashes. Cool huh. BS. So who was there to take care of the kids had she gone in too? Hammo? Karl? Tributes were made , and a few were disrespected.

[CrazyL 0]

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I don't teach students, i'm not their example of how to land a parachute.

Every single skydiver teaches every single student.

Don't you see us students standing out there with sore necks and squinting into the sun to watch you do what it is you do so well?

I'm not saying that you should be banned for what you do, or have done. Not at all. It isn't my call to make so it's none of my business.

BUT - Please don't ever think that simply because you are not an instructor that you aren't setting an example for students. I hope - and believe - that the vast, vast majority of students are smart enough to listen to their instructors and to not try some of the wacky shit you do. I also believe that if some student with 5 jumps tries a hook turn and drills himself 10 feet into the ground that it's his fault and not yours. Stupidity would have gotten him one way or another; parachute or no parachute; Crazy Larry or no Crazy Larry.

A large number of people are always going to be fascinated by what you do. Fascinated because it appeals to them or fascinated because it scares the shit out of them. When a student (or anyone else) asks how to do a hook turn, rather than shut them down or refuse to answer, it only builds mystery and appeal. How about talk to them on why do do them, how hook turns are used in competitions, how hook turns can turn deadly in even the most experienced hands, how you learned to do them and from who, why you love them so much, etc. If you answer a question that wasn't asked but is closely related, most people never catch on.

Just one student's thoughts...

Thank you for a great perspective, well worded unlike the title I had on this thread. I'll share with another fact of the fatality that day. So, he was married, 2 kids, wife, retired marine, policeman, an all around badass, much respect. He had 2 identical rigs with 1 out of 3 backup devices on his rigs. He had reserves, no rsl, no aad. I ask myself why. I also believe a silver D handle would've prevented him from bouncing and me being banned. sorry, it's upsetting to say the least.

[Pegandmeg 0]

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If your gonna go in at Elsinore do it away from the landing area so others can continue to jump and not get banned for landing within a ahalf mile of your dead corpse. That's part of what I learned from this experience.

Yeah, that's what I learned too. I can't wait to apply it to my skydiving.

[CrazyL 0]

Being that the dz Skydive Elsinore is a public place, it'd be hard pressed to be banned from the property. As other 'banned' members have done i'll go there and hang out. On a cloudy day while they put jumpers through clouds and video tape and drink a cup of tea. Why should I care if the care takers of Lake Elsinore remain the caretakers or not. Sooner Hammo leaves the sooner I get to enjoy the valley once again.

[CrazyL 0]

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If your gonna go in at Elsinore do it away from the landing area so others can continue to jump and not get banned for landing within a ahalf mile of your dead corpse. That's part of what I learned from this experience.

Yeah, that's what I learned too. I can't wait to apply it to my skydiving.

Ya ya. maybe I worded it wrong again. Do what you like just don't go in on me or my friends or my stuff.

[CrazyL 0]

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You are only one who can keep yourself alive.

I would not complain about others' influence.

She is well aware of that. But experienced jumpers sometimes forget that they are role models (both good and bad) to inexperienced jumpers. That's just how the world works, and not just in skydiving. It's nice to see a young jumper remind the rest of us of that sometimes, and she's got a good head on her shoulders (at least from her posts here) to make educated decisions. Not all are so wise.

Glad you people realize and know that you are in charge of your own destiny. PD factory team are role models. Instructors, coaches, dz personnel , they are the role models. Many years ago the role model thing was brought up to me. So I declined to be a 'role model' by passing up the chance to be an instructor. I then began to go off with my parachute flying skills so much that when a jumper would see me fly and land they would be scared shitless enough to not try the crazy shit that I was pulling off. Phrases were said 'that was crazy larry' others would say yep that's crazy larry. Forget the name it's nonsense like the post about practicing going in off the dz landing area. I still have yet to have the desire to teach the most deadlieast thing in skydiving. Therefore I am not the example, not the role model. Make your own choices, make your own decisions. I did. No one else was my example or role model to do hookturns. I just wanted to go fast. So I did. It was an idea.