Best setup for soft openings

[masterrigger1 2]

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Then again, if your #1 goal is soft openings, then don't even bother unless it has a dome slider and/or dacron.

While the Dacron and a domed slider is all good, a Sabre with 600 lb Technora and a "H" mod works even better. The "h" mod makes the openings very consistent.
And the the ultimate setup is to add the Domed slider also.

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[DougH 270]

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Pilots in sizes 124 up. Below that they tend to open a bit harder.

I know 'harder' is a relative term, but it seems wrong when used to refer to any Pilot. 'Faster' maybe, or 'in less height' but surely not 'harder'

Smaller pilots can definetly open harder than the larger ones, I have had the openings to prove it. But they don't do it all the time, and they fly so sweet.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[jakee 1,490]

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Smaller pilots can definetly open harder than the larger ones, I have had the openings to prove it. But they don't do it all the time, and they fly so sweet.

Wierd. The best opening canopy I've ever jumped was a Pilot 104. Soft, smooth, effortlessly on heading and without all that endless bloody snivelling that so many modern canopies (and larger Pilots) suffer from.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[phoenixlpr 0]

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While the Dacron and a domed slider is all good, a Sabre with 600 lb Technora and a "H" mod works even better. The "h" mod makes the openings very consistent.

That's a very interesting pimp.

[Halfpastniner 0]

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"to the OP, it could be that you hear more stories of slammers on the Sabre family, because between the two, there is a SHIT load of them being jumped."


The pocket slider on my Sabre1 makes it open absolutely perfect. I never actually jumped it without the mod, didn't feel it was worth waiting to see if I would need it"
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You can't argue with numbers. However, with the Sabre line being responsible for so many hard openings...and involved in more than a few fatalities...I don't think that I would trust one.

Your right you cant argue with the numbers. The numbers say the Sabre2 is one of the top jumped canopies today. When you have that many of them out there, there will be more people talking about it (good or bad) than say a Storm (which hasent necessarily been around long enough to develop a complete picture)

If you are not concerned with flight characteristics, only openings, I would get a Spectre. I wouldnt modify the slider though-they (usually) open plenty slow.

BASE 1384

[mnealtx 0]

What's the "H mod"?
Nevermind, found it.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[peek 21]

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Dacron lines will give you a little extra protection from a real slammer, but ordinarily do not do much.

The Dacron lines on my Stiletto make my openings softer each and every time.

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Domed sliders work as well. Larger sliders _sometimes_ work, but sometimes just cause more trouble.

Do you have some examples, i.e., some canopy models where a large slider caused trouble?

I have a fair amount of experience in this area but am also interested in the research of others.

[peek 21]

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While the Dacron and a domed slider is all good, a Sabre with 600 lb Technora and a "H" mod works even better. The "h" mod makes the openings very consistent. And the the ultimate setup is to add the Domed slider also.

Mark, I have seen a number of posts now that indicate that you consider the "domed" slider to be superior to the normal (large) sail slider. Is this a correct assumption on my part?

What canopies have you or others done (test) jumps on with both types of sliders to compare the difference?

I have done considerable work in the "large slider to slow down the opening" area, but am always interested in the research of others.

[masterrigger1 2]

Gary,
There is a point to which if the larger slider offers little to no resistance, the openings on any canopy become faster/harder.

The increase in span is usually the culprit.

At least these are my findings.....

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[peek 21]

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Gary, There is a point to which if the larger slider offers little to no resistance, the openings on any canopy become faster/harder. The increase in span is usually the culprit. At least these are my findings.

I was curious as to how you came up with your findings.

At what sizes and aspect ratios does this happen? On which canopy models did you do these experiments?

[hackish 8]

I jumped a sabre 150 with a slider built to peek's specs. It opened beautifully compared to before the mod. I only did 2 on it but both were an improvement.

From a pure physics point of view I don't disagree with what Mel says either. Just find the right size of a specific canopy.

-Michael

[masterrigger1 2]

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I was curious as to how you came up with your findings.

By merely test jumping a lot.
If a canopy comes in with reported hard openings, we test jump it as is. We then build sliders that have been proven to work in the past on that type of canopy.
As far as aspect ratios. you can throw that out the window if you are trying to develop a "standard"

There are just too many variables as I see it.
Angle of attack, line trim, Nose design, and etc all have a play in the openings.

PD uses the same slide size on alot of their canopies. The ratio of slider size to canopy size varies greatly.


In 2003, we had a lot of Safire II's snilving well past 1800 ft.
I then came up with a couple of sizes that worked well within the below 210 sg ft range. A third size was developed at a later date for the above 210 sq ft sizes.
It was then we found that increasing the span at too great of a number would knock your shoes off.


BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[masterrigger1 2]

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Mark, I have seen a number of posts now that indicate that you consider the "domed" slider to be superior to the normal (large) sail slider. Is this a correct assumption on my part?

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Gary,
Just saw this post.

Yes, I consider the Domed slider to be superior. the reasons are very simple.
1. You retain the nominal size of the original slider but increase resistance.

2. The domed slider does not have to be presented to the relative air exactly flat to work properly. A normal "flat" slider does. If for instance the corner of a "flat" slider is packed twisted, inverted, or otherwise not perfect to the relative air it simply does not work as well as one that is presented perfectly.
The reason is that air is spilled out of the high corner or folded back corner.

The domed slider acts just like a pilot chute as it is formed and pocketed like an air channel.
It also re-centers the canopy if it has a little heading problem during the inflation process.

I have a couple of demos if you care to try them.
Also, if anyone wants to know how to properly manufacture one let me know.

It is not hard! Made one yesterday in fact!

I need to get back to work....



BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[RMURRAY 1]

I have seen a sabre1 170 go from "for hop n pops only" to opening nice and soft at terminal due to MELs dome slider.

[billvon 2,991]

>Do you have some examples, i.e., some canopy models where a large
>slider caused trouble?

My second canopy (a Sabre1 150) opened quite hard. I tried replacing the slider with a considerably larger slider from a PD190. It made things worse. Then I tried a large pocket on the 150's slider and that worked well.

[erdnarob 1]

Some physics: Acceleration positive or negative is always inversely proportional to the time of that acceleration. That means faster = shorter time then higher negative acceleration or higher deceleration. And second Newton's law tells us that the Force is proportional to the acceleration. Therefore we have:
Faster (shorter time) = higher deceleration resulting in more Force involved. Then using the expression Faster (less Time) is equivalent to say Harder (more Force).
We have to remind ourselves that a parachute is able to open so fast that it is able to: break femur, break ribs, break neck vertebrae and in some occurrences to cause aorta rupture.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[peek 21]

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My second canopy (a Sabre1 150) opened quite hard. I tried replacing the slider with a considerably larger slider from a PD190. It made things worse.

An important question is how much wider is is than the original Sabre slider. The sliders I have made for Sabres that have worked so well are 2 inches wider and 9 inches bigger front to back.

[diablopilot 2]

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But not sure how I'd do it on spectre brake lines with loops instead of cat eyes. Need two loops. Needs to go through the guide ring smoothly. Has anybody already done this?

I haven't done it with Spectra, but I'd go about it the same way one adds a DBS to a Dacron lined B A S E canopy. Fingertrap a piece of line into the control line with a small section exposed.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[linebckr83 3]

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Pilot is made by Aerodyne.

Freak accidents happen on them all as i know you are aware, my first jump on a Spectre gave me a gut wrenching hard opening.

Same here! My first canopy was a Spectre 210 and 95% of the openings were fantastic, except for those 2 horribly hard ones (1 that tore the canopy and the other tore my vector II). I since downsized to a Pilot 188 and have had 100% perfect openings. I'd say either of those choices would point you in a good direction.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[jakee 1,490]

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Faster (shorter time) = higher deceleration resulting in more Force involved. Then using the expression Faster (less Time) is equivalent to say Harder (more Force).

A) I was being facetious.

B) The above does not always hold true. It's perfectly possible for a parachute to take longer to open than another, yet also open harder, with a higher peak force.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[porpoishead 8]

i put 120 or so jumps on a brand new spectre 210 loaded @ 1:1. it opened soft and on heading every time. it consistently opened in approx 750ft-950ft every now and then it would snivel through 1000ft before it fully inflated.

I never did anything special when packing it, standard pro-pack and i would take 3 cells of the nose (not rolled) on each side and tuck them into the center leaving the center cell exposed. I psycho-packed it several times and would end up with 1000ft + openeings.

my spectre was a very docile and soft opening canopy with very good forward drive even into the wind, and an excellent flare. I made some really long spots with that canopy when almost everybody in the same group landed out.

I do not regret having owned and having learned to fly under that canopy.

after the spectre I put about 50-60 or so jumps all together on these various canopies. new triathlon 190 @1.1:1, new sabre2 190 @ 1.1:1, a new triathlon 175 @ 1.2:1

the triathlons opened faster than my spectre but not harder by any means. they lacked the forward speed and penetration into the wind that i was used to from the spectre the tri's seemed to come straight down when flying into the wind and had a very steep angle otherwise, and flared decently

the sabre2 had awesome forward speed, penetration, a very powerful flare and was very very fun and exciting to fly. now the openings on that thing were horendous i jumped it about 15 times and every time it made me feel like I would be chopping it away. it did not open hard on me at all despite me pitching out in a full on track with it once(actually one of the better openings i had on it) the openings in general were off heading and just tossed me all over the place. very strange openings than what i was used to.


i ended up under a a pilot 168 @ 1.25:1 I have around 100 jumps on the pilot now. and it is a very sweet canopy. i get good penetration, it's fun to fly, good flare and the openings are very soft and consistently faster than my spectre ever was. my pilot opens consistently and on heading in approx. 550ft-750ft again faster but not harder openings than my spectre.

I dont't do anything to the nose when packing my pilot standard pro-pack and take 4 cells (not rolled) from each side and tuck them in towards the center leaving the center cell exposed.


results may vary with wingload, jumper, packer, particular canopy, packing method, etc.
the opinions expressed here in this post are the results that I have had with these particular canopies that i flew.
my pilot has had the most favorable openings of any canopy that i have ever flown to date.

if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell

[billvon 2,991]

> The sliders I have made for Sabres that have worked so well are
> 2 inches wider and 9 inches bigger front to back.

I've heard that. I assumed that keeping the aspect ratio would be important, and the PD190 slider was a similar aspect ratio to the Sabre's. (I forget the exact dimensions.) I should have tried a Raven slider; they seem significantly "squarer." (Back then I couldn't have made my own slider.)

[monkycndo 0]

I have Sa170 (700+ total jumps/400 by me) and Sa150 (200+ total jumps/50 by me). When I got the 150, the slider had the old velcro wrap to collapse it. While I was having the 150 slider modified with kill lines, I put the 170 slider on the 150 canopy. The size of the two are the same width wise, but the 170 is 2 inches larger front to back. It did make the openings a tiny bit softer. I don't look up until I am fully stood up during deployment. With the larger slider, I can actually watch the slider coming down the last couple feet instead of it being at the risers when I look up. That being said, I have never been slammed by either of my Sabres. I like the "positive" openings. I used to 4-4 roll the nose and stuff it deep. I got openings of over 800 feet that were often off heading due to one side unrolling first. Once Vinnie borrowed my 170 and packed it afterward. He packed it like the slammer Sabre method and when I jumped it, I thought I had a mal it opened so slow. After playing with how I pack it, I now just soft stuff the nose for consistent on heading "brisk but no where near slammer" 500-600 foot openings.

Every individual canopy has it's own personality. If the Sabre1 is only capable of slamming, I guess I am either used to being slammed every jump or the canopy doesn't deserve the bad rep it seems to have from people who only repeat a story having never jumped the canopy.

YMMV

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[hackish 8]

PD specifically says do not tuck the nose on a sabre1 or it will cause inconsistent openings they streamer or slam. I guess they sorted that out with the sabre2.

-Michael

[erdnarob 1]

My statement concerns average force and deceleration thus is equivalent to a constant deceleration being the result of a constant force applied.
I agree with what you say in the sense that a canopy can snivel for few seconds (which is part of the deployment) then suddenly slam you. Generally when a canopy opens, the snatch force and the inflation force are not distinctly felt by the jumper who just feels the opening force as one force. Personally, I jumped now a Katana 170 which snivels for 1.5 second or less then inflates softly but on an average of 10 jumps it takes 600 feet to get completely inflated. It is the softest openings a parachute provided me so far. What is special now with the Katana, my openings are constant. Before I had a Sabre 2-170 which was taking, on an avarage of 10 jumps, 340 feet. No wonder I felt its openings as very positive especially the time it opened within 180 feet. Note: Before my rig with the Sabre 2 had riser cover tuck tabs, now my rig with the Katana has riser cover magnets. Have your own conclusion.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.