Skyhook

[vision 0]

Quote

If you were specifically talking about tandems than my post should be disregarded both in the head low position and the questioning the added rsl disconnection. I was thinking of adding this step to a standard sport jump with say a much lower ~2500 container opening.

Do you think this problem is exclusive to tandems?

[craddock 0]

vision

Do you think this problem is exclusive to tandems?

I am not saying that. Although a tandem my have twice as much time to perform an extra step in emergency procedures unique to this one malfunction. I just question how the weekend fun jumpers of varying abilities to deal with stress would handle disconnecting an rsl in the few precious seconds they may have to do so. And if sitting up truly solves the problem if that might not be a better standard plan.

I do not dispute that it would be safer to disconnect and not even saying that given the time I would not do so.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[dwhenline 0]

I am a newbie but bought a new container after getting my license. I got a mirage, as that is the "local rig". It is nice but one of the things I sort of wanted was a MARD. Just seems to make sense to me.
can I get a rigger to install a skyhook on a mirage container?
I wouldnt mind buying a vector but wait time is nearly nine months. OUCH
My other thought would be to just order a vector and sell my container when it arrives.
dwh

[Southern_Man 0]

dwhenline

I am a newbie but bought a new container after getting my license. I got a mirage, as that is the "local rig". It is nice but one of the things I sort of wanted was a MARD. Just seems to make sense to me.
can I get a rigger to install a skyhook on a mirage container?
I wouldnt mind buying a vector but wait time is nearly nine months. OUCH
My other thought would be to just order a vector and sell my container when it arrives.
dwh

Skyhook is available on the Vector, Icon, and Javelin systems I believe.

Wings has the "Boost" MARD.

Mirage is not able to be fitted with a skyhook. They have been working on their own MARD called DRX (direct reserve extraction) and have quite a bit about it on their website. I can't find via a quick search (since I am at work) whether it is in commercial release or not and whether it could be retrofitted. I haven't seen one on the Mirages I've packed but I have only packed a couple. I'm sure somebody more knowledgeable will be along shortly.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[skydiverek 63]

Southern_Man

Skyhook is available on the Vector, Icon, and Javelin

And Mars container.

[Southern_Man 0]

skydiverek

***Skyhook is available on the Vector, Icon, and Javelin

And Mars container.

Thanks for that addition. I did not know that.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[champu 1]

Skydivesg

***

I'm not convinced, however, that the Collin's lanyard addresses anything other than gear maintenance / construction errors and I'm not comfortable with the added complexity and potential failure modes it creates.

Hey Ryan, will you please explain what you mean by "potential failure modes it creates"?

Scenarios where the Collins' lanyard is loaded by anything other than the right main riser leaving the rig...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3458726#3458726

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4115298#4115298

I want to be clear that I don't think the Collins' lanyard is a primary failure mechanism; if it's getting pulled the wrong way, you're already having a bad day. But if you're worried about a situation where your reserve container is open while you're half attached to your main then your solution ought to not add another way for you to end up with your reserve container open while you're half attached to your main.

If you a) use cutaway cables that are the correct length so that the non-rsl side releases first when you cut away, b) use risers that were sewn correctly and are not dogged out and c) assemble your three-rings correctly, then you have a vanishingly small chance of needing a Collins' lanyard.

[Stikkos 0]

From Dan BC:
http://www.skydivemag.com/article/rsl-skyhook-or-faith

[Skydivesg 7]

champu

******

I'm not convinced, however, that the Collin's lanyard addresses anything other than gear maintenance / construction errors and I'm not comfortable with the added complexity and potential failure modes it creates.

Hey Ryan, will you please explain what you mean by "potential failure modes it creates"?

Scenarios where the Collins' lanyard is loaded by anything other than the right main riser leaving the rig...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3458726#3458726

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4115298#4115298

I want to be clear that I don't think the Collins' lanyard is a primary failure mechanism; if it's getting pulled the wrong way, you're already having a bad day. But if you're worried about a situation where your reserve container is open while you're half attached to your main then your solution ought to not add another way for you to end up with your reserve container open while you're half attached to your main.

If you a) use cutaway cables that are the correct length so that the non-rsl side releases first when you cut away, b) use risers that were sewn correctly and are not dogged out and c) assemble your three-rings correctly, then you have a vanishingly small chance of needing a Collins' lanyard.


Ryan here is a scenario for you (an actual event).

I've seen a video from the Midwest (although I don't know who has it) where there are two guys facing and sitting (legs locked) during an exit.

One of them has his hands on the harness of his buddy and as it turns out strips only one cable out of the cutaway housing of his buddy. Of course it was the RSL side cable.

Neither of them realized what had happened but it was quite clear on the POV video. When the guy opened, his RSL riser left, pulling the pin and initiating deployment of the reserve.

In this case the guy had a Skyhook and the Collins lanyard did what it was supposed to do. It cutaway the non-RSL riser before the reserve came out.

So, would it have been better that the guy not have a Collins lanyard? Or maybe just no RSL at all? Because had he not had the Skyhook (with the mandatory Collins lanyard) the outcome would certainly have been different and very possibly, catastrophic. Unless of course he had no RSL.

There is no doubt that the Skyhook adds a bit of complexity and I'm sure people (naysayers) can come up with scenarios when maybe it would be better without, a Skyhook, or Collins lanyard, or RSL, or AAD or square reserve, or hand deploy pilot chutes and on and on.

It is my belief and the statistics support this belief - Skyhooks are a very good thing for the majority of the people in our sport. They save lives and more and more people are getting on board with them. And that's a good thing.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

It is my belief and the statistics support this belief - Skyhooks are a very good thing for the majority of the people in our sport. They save lives and more and more people are getting on board with them. And that's a good thing.

^This.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[champu 1]

Skydivesg

***If you a) use cutaway cables that are the correct length so that the non-rsl side releases first when you cut away, b) use risers that were sewn correctly and are not dogged out and c) assemble your three-rings correctly, then you have a vanishingly small chance of needing a Collins' lanyard.

One of them has his hands on the harness of his buddy and as it turns out strips only one cable out of the cutaway housing of his buddy. Of course it was the RSL side cable.

... d) don't do that.

I hadn't heard about that incident. It sounds similar to this one and both sound like really good reasons not to take MLW grips out the door. In the situation you describe, since he had a skyhook/RSL and since he didn't notice what had happened, yes, a Collins' Lanyard made a bad situation better.

I completely understand the function and reasoning behind including a Collins' Lanyard but I think it has about the same small chance of helping as it does hurting, and I think avoiding the situations where it would help is an easier, or at least more straight-forward, thing to do.

Skydivesg

It is my belief and the statistics support this belief - Skyhooks are a very good thing for the majority of the people in our sport. They save lives and more and more people are getting on board with them. And that's a good thing.

No argument there. My concern is not with the skyhook itself, I think they're a great addition to the sport.

[riggerrob 643]

diablopilot

Quote

It is my belief and the statistics support this belief - Skyhooks are a very good thing for the majority of the people in our sport. They save lives and more and more people are getting on board with them. And that's a good thing.

^This.

[gregpso 1]

diablopilot

Quote

It is my belief and the statistics support this belief - Skyhooks are a very good thing for the majority of the people in our sport. They save lives and more and more people are getting on board with them. And that's a good thing.

^This.

So I have been right since 2008 when I started promoting them.. and paid the price (esp at nagambie Australia) But its nice to be right! Will be as common as AAD in a few years !!

I tend to be a bit different. enjoyed my time in the sport or is it an industry these days ??

[Quagmirian 40]

gregpso

***

Quote

It is my belief and the statistics support this belief - Skyhooks are a very good thing for the majority of the people in our sport. They save lives and more and more people are getting on board with them. And that's a good thing.

^This.

So I have been right since 2008 when I started promoting them.. and paid the price (esp at nagambie Australia) But its nice to be right! Will be as common as AAD in a few years !!FUCKING STOP

[piisfish 140]

didn't you previously ask for your profile to be deleted ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[diablopilot 2]

gregpso

***

Quote

It is my belief and the statistics support this belief - Skyhooks are a very good thing for the majority of the people in our sport. They save lives and more and more people are getting on board with them. And that's a good thing.

^This.

So I have been right since 2008 when I started promoting them.. and paid the price (esp at nagambie Australia) But its nice to be right! Will be as common as AAD in a few years !!

Yes, you're right, you're the best skydiver that has ever lived. Enjoy your victory.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Turboprop 0]

And in a few years Greg, no doubt you will be still slinging fairy tales on the net like the whuffo you are and never jump again.

[Turboprop 0]

Turboprop

And in a few years Greg, no doubt you will be still slinging fairy tales on the net like the whuffo you are and never jump again.

And on this clowns numerous claims `I promoted them heavily on Aussie forums' There was one topic where he asked about them and as usual gave the answer he wanted before anyone replied: and the rest was just a string of smart ass remarks over the next few years regarding that.

[ouch 0]

Only problem is that fairy tales have well founded intent and happy endings.

Greg is a malicious, self-promoting fool, who keeps saying it's over and then adds another stupid sequel. He sets out to damage the sport and the people in it.

Thanks for ruining a really good debate, again.

[Trev_S 0]

gregpso

***

Quote

It is my belief and the statistics support this belief - Skyhooks are a very good thing for the majority of the people in our sport. They save lives and more and more people are getting on board with them. And that's a good thing.

^This.

So I have been right since 2008 when I started promoting them.. and paid the price (esp at nagambie Australia) But its nice to be right! Will be as common as AAD in a few years !!

I don't think many people disagree, Greg... But we didn't remove all cars that didn't have an airbag installed from the road the day after airbags were developed.

[NPower 0]

gregpso

So I have been right since 2008 when I started promoting them.. and paid the price (esp at nagambie Australia) But its nice to be right! Will be as common as AAD in a few years !!

Didn't I hear that you also suggested to the DZSO or CI that they could be considered criminally negligent because their student rigs were not equipped with skyhooks?
Regardless of whether you were right or wrong about skyhooks, do you really think it was because of your wisdom and expertise or just dumb, flip of the coin type luck?
If I were a rigger/instructor/CI and some fresh AFF student rolled up with a know it all attitude, making statements like that, with clearly no experience, knowledge or qualifications to back that attitude up I'd probably show them the door too, pronto.
I doubt you were shown the door for promoting skyhooks per se, but more for the attitude. You can't teach people with an attitude like that.

[Joellercoaster 6]

Just because Greg can't let it go for all these years, doesn't mean we can't either.

Attention is oxygen.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[NPower 0]

Makes no difference to me that he gets attention. Unlike some, I'm not bothered at all whether he posts here or not.

[Andy9o8 2]

gregpso

***

Quote

It is my belief and the statistics support this belief - Skyhooks are a very good thing for the majority of the people in our sport. They save lives and more and more people are getting on board with them. And that's a good thing.

^This.

So I have been right since 2008 when I started promoting them.. and paid the price (esp at nagambie Australia) But its nice to be right! Will be as common as AAD in a few years !!

I don't know any of the parties in your situation, Greg. But my 50+ years experience in life is that when people get ostracized as you claim to have been, sometimes it is because the person is a rabble-rouser, but other times it's mainly because they're just an intolerable asshole with dysfunctional social skills. Just a general observation.

[fencebuster 7]

+1

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures