Mistake-proofing gear

[wmw999 2,529]

There's a debate ongoing in Incidents (with regards to the wingsuit incident) on mistake-proofing. Without getting into the debate, this might be an opportunity to think about some ways to mistake-proof things that are regular problems or that are bothersome.

E.g. -- stowing the extra line on brake lines. There are a number of different types of toggles; people are still taught sometimes to run the extra through the riser, and plenty just leave it loose. So how can it be done better? I do like the risers that I have (I think they're Javelin risers, but I did buy the rig used), where you can stow the extra in the retaining elastic for the bottom of the toggle.

But reserve toggles still have velcro. And with repack cycles going to 6 months, is that going to be a problem?

Feel free to come up with other problems and let's think about them. Mistake-proofing doesn't remove the possibility of error; it just makes the correct condition one that feels natural to the user, rather than one that needs lots of checking. Thus making that checking easier, not eliminating it.

The colored section on the collapsible pilot chute is a good example of mistake-proofing.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[peek 21]

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E.g. -- stowing the extra line on brake lines. ... So how can it be done better?

If a person is open-minded enough, a number of methods can be used, for example: http://www.pcprg.com/slstow.htm

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But reserve toggles still have velcro. And with repack cycles going to 6 months, is that going to be a problem?

No. And, the only disadvantage I can find to using Velcro on reserve toggles is that after a person has a reserve ride that they are so excited that they forget to mate the toggle Velcro to the riser Velcro when they land, and the hook Velcro might catch on the lines. (Of course some lines are not susceptible to this at all.)

In all other regards (properly maintained) Velcro is superior, and unless a rig has a lot of reserve rides on it, or if the above mentioned issue exists, the maintenance is zero.

[skybytch 273]

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But reserve toggles still have velcro. And with repack cycles going to 6 months, is that going to be a problem?

Velcro on reserve toggles is a problem? Damn. And to think I have velcro on both main and reserve toggles.

Am I going to die?

[LaRusic 0]

mistake proofing things is a great idea....only problem is, people will just find new and creative ways of making mistakes with it.

kinda goes with most things not just skydiving, im a tech in the army and when we get new things that are supposed to be idiot proof, we get some amazing things that they have done with it that just makes you shake your head.

I think the best mistake proofing is through good training on the equipment and ASKING when you are unsure of something

The Altitude above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel not in the plane are totally worthless
Dudeist Skydiver # 10

[Remster 30]

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mistake proofing things is a great idea

Well, in theroy.

There are 2 contradicting issues: added complexity, and added mistake-proofing. Everyone seems to want the latest and greatest feature, but the more complexity you add to a system, to more potential failure modes you get. Having a RSL, Skyhook, AAD, etc, may add safety features to a system, but they also add failure modes.

Remster

[mdrejhon 8]

Properly maintained velcro seems to be pretty reliable. Before I replaced my risers, my original low-jump Vector 2 had the original velcro toggle stows for main risers (risers had less than 200 jumps since the mid '90s).

The velcro stows functioned 100% reliably. Now I've since upgraded the risers (front riser loops, non-velcro toggles, etc) and I have had two jumps with stuck toggles on non-velcro toggle stows. On both jumps, I freed eventually.

The risers I have will not wear as quickly as velcro, but initially velcro is more reliable and mistake-proof -- but only until the velcro gets worn. Then the mals start happening.

If velcro didn't start having some nasty problems when it got worn, we'd still be using velcro today on main risers, at least for non-ellipticals. It's still used in reserves because it seems so damn reliable when it's good quality and well-maintained and not worn out. 6 month reserve pack cycles will benefit velcro toggle stows on reserve risers for this reason because it will make it wear more slowly.

[billvon 3,064]

>Am I going to die?

Sadly, yes, you will. (But not for a long time hopefully.)

>Velcro on reserve toggles is a problem?

Only in terms of lower brake line wear. To the poster's original point, going to a 6 month repack cycle will actually extend the life of most reserves, since they will be handled less and the brakes will be mated/unmated fewer times a year.

[diablopilot 2]

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Am I going to die?

Yes but unless you involve a cannon, a billboard covered in velcro, a fuzzy suit, and possibly a giant bowl of jello you'll probably be ok.

If I were you I's start playing around with an irrational particle accelerator, a liquid lunch, and a pair of rubber bands.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Nutz 0]

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Am I going to die?

Yes but unless you involve a cannon, a billboard covered in velcro, a fuzzy suit, and possibly a giant bowl of jello you'll probably be ok.

If I were you I's start playing around with an irrational particle accelerator, a liquid lunch, and a pair of rubber bands.

"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

[skybytch 273]

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If velcro didn't start having some nasty problems when it got worn, we'd still be using velcro today on main risers, at least for non-ellipticals.

Like any other wear item on gear, replacing the velcro as needed eliminates that problem.

I have this argument with my master rigger/swooper s/o on a regular basis. He prefers non-velcro. I have a few jumps on non-velcro toggles; I don't like them at all. The frequency of occurrence of stuck toggles, popped brakes and fingers getting tied up in excess line went up considerably with the introduction and popularity of non-velcro risers. When I compare that with the big downsides to velcro toggles (possibly having to spend $20 to replace the lower steering lines every couple hundred jumps and maybe the same to replace velcro every 500 or so, although by then it's probably a good idea to replace the entire riser) and I add in the fact that with velcro I have a secure place to put the toggles should I need to let go of them and a secure place to stow the excess line... the decision is a no brainer for me.

[riggerpaul 1]

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Properly maintained velcro seems to be pretty reliable. Before I replaced my risers, my original low-jump Vector 2 had the original velcro toggle stows for main risers (risers had less than 200 jumps since the mid '90s).

The velcro stows functioned 100% reliably. Now I've since upgraded the risers (front riser loops, non-velcro toggles, etc) and I have had two jumps with stuck toggles on non-velcro toggle stows. On both jumps, I freed eventually.

The risers I have will not wear as quickly as velcro, but initially velcro is more reliable and mistake-proof -- but only until the velcro gets worn. Then the mals start happening.

If velcro didn't start having some nasty problems when it got worn, we'd still be using velcro today on main risers, at least for non-ellipticals. It's still used in reserves because it seems so damn reliable when it's good quality and well-maintained and not worn out. 6 month reserve pack cycles will benefit velcro toggle stows on reserve risers for this reason because it will make it wear more slowly.

I'm responding particularly to your last paragraph

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If velcro didn't start having some nasty problems when it got worn, we'd still be using velcro today on main risers, at least for non-ellipticals. It's still used in reserves because it seems so damn reliable when it's good quality and well-maintained and not worn out.

We used to use velcro for riser covers, and for main and reserve cover flaps. We also used to use belly-bands, and rear-of-leg pilot chute pouches that often had several inches of exposed velcro to worry about.

These applications were not well suited to the properties of velcro, and velcro quickly got a bad name.

What followed was a knee-jerk reaction to get rid of all the evil velcro from rigs, even in the places where it worked well with just a little bit of care and maintenance.

With a little care, velcro for securing main toggles and excess steering line worked fine. It was easy to take care of, and repairing worn velcro in these areas isn't very difficult at all.

I've been using one set of velcro equipped Type 8 risers for years and years and years and many hundreds of jumps.

I think this was mostly a case of tossing out the baby with the bath water.

[Skwrl 56]

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If I were you I's start playing around with an irrational particle accelerator, a liquid lunch, and a pair of rubber bands.

You're a jerk, JP. A real knee-biter.

Now I have to go find "JQ".

[Note to mods: this is not a "personal attack" - it's a response to his (otherwise sort of obscure) reference]

On the toggle issue, I'm personally a fan of UPT's "true lock" system, rather than velcro.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[phoenixlpr 0]

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we'd still be using velcro today on main risers, at least for non-ellipticals.

What is using velcro doing with the type of the canopy?

I'd rather have hard housing on risers. It can save you like on a line twist. There is nothing wrong with velcro on risers.

[jverley 1]

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Mistake-proofing doesn't remove the possibility of error...

A wise rigger once told me: "We try to make things idiot proof, but idiots are very resourceful."

John
Arizona Hiking Trails

[erdnarob 1]

Wendy and Gary...On UPT reserve risers, you don't have to separate the 2 parts of the Velcro in order to release the brakes and provided the 2 Velcro parts are well matched (by the rigger) the lines will never come in contact with the hook part. I agree strongly that Velcro (well maintained) is still the safest way to stow the extra of steering line even if that can appeared being a out of date concept. BTW we still often have Velcro on : the cut away handle, the reserve handle pocket, the Cypres pocket, the RSL routing near the yoke, the bridle just above the pin and sometimes after the pin, on the Skyhook to keep the reserve pin in position and allow it to swivel...well... it seems we re not alredy done with the Velcro.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[wmw999 2,529]

I'm from the 70's. I love Velcro. It's so much better than Dot snaps, for one thing.

But if it's not carefully mated, it can fray the edges of risers and lines. I've seen it. Yes, it's supposed to be really, really carefully mated.

One form of mistake-proofing would simply be to make the hook piece 1/8 inch (or maybe 3 mm) smaller all around. Particularly on a main, where it might not always be mated with care.

Just a thought. At one time bellybands were the state of the art, and you just had to be careful. Dave O was a careful guy, most of the time

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mdrejhon 8]

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we'd still be using velcro today on main risers, at least for non-ellipticals.

What is using velcro doing with the type of the canopy?

True you're right -- theoretically, one could have hard housings AND velcro on the same risers... Just something I've never seen although I'm sure some do it that way. (Hard housings appears to be a relatively new development, that often goes hand in hand with newer stows)

As long as the mechanism is toggle-unstow-resistant, anyway, more important for ellipticals that may go into linetwists upon such an unstow mal... (I don't think Velcro had many of those types of mals anyway, based even on my limited experience!)

To another poster, I agree, the need for freefly safety of containers was a good thing, but I do agree that the baby did get thrown out with the bathwater -- I miss the velcro stows.

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A wise rigger once told me: "We try to make things idiot proof, but idiots are very resourceful."

And that's often the case in the software industry too, where I work!

[ficus 0]

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If velcro didn't start having some nasty problems when it got worn, we'd still be using velcro today on main risers, at least for non-ellipticals.

Velcro actually becomes a better and better idea the more high-performance your canopy gets, because of the increased severity of a brake fire.

[ryan_d_sucks 0]

I met someone this weekend who had a mod done to their bridle... Its a collapsible PC, so it must be cocked before every jump. A rigger moved the closing pin to the inside of the bridle, and created a window (much like the window that lets you view your kill line color). The pin would only be visible through the window (and therefore able to be inserted in the closing loop) if the pilot chute had been cocked.

I couldn't tell you how to make this mod yourself, but the theory seemed sound.

[skybytch 273]

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Its a collapsible PC, so it must be cocked before every jump. A rigger moved the closing pin to the inside of the bridle, and created a window (much like the window that lets you view your kill line color). The pin would only be visible through the window (and therefore able to be inserted in the closing loop) if the pilot chute had been cocked.

Sounds kinda like the old Precision death line p/c to me...

[phoenixlpr 0]

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True you're right -- theoretically, one could have hard housings AND velcro on the same risers... Just something I've never seen although I'm sure some do it that way. (Hard housings appears to be a relatively new development, that often goes hand in hand with newer stows)

AFAIK hard housing can be retrofitted.

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As long as the mechanism is toggle-unstow-resistant, anyway, more important for ellipticals that may go into linetwists upon such an unstow mal... (I don't think Velcro had many of those types of mals anyway, based even on my limited experience!)

Unstow mal I can imagine from the user who forgot to stow the breaks....

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I met someone this weekend who had a mod done to their bridle... Its a collapsible PC, so it must be cocked before every jump. A rigger moved the closing pin to the inside of the bridle, and created a window (much like the window that lets you view your kill line color). The pin would only be visible through the window (and therefore able to be inserted in the closing loop) if the pilot chute had been cocked.

I had that. Its really bad. It failed to work 10% of the time. The pin was stucked in the window and PC was not collapsed.

[piisfish 140]

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Velcro actually becomes a better and better idea the more high-performance your canopy gets, because of the increased severity of a brake fire.

what has the velcro to do with that ?

If you had ever seen a PArachutes de France toggle, you would definitely adopt that system.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[ficus 0]

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Velcro actually becomes a better and better idea the more high-performance your canopy gets, because of the increased severity of a brake fire.

what has the velcro to do with that ?

This is pretty obvious, no? Velcro toggles are the hardest to accidentally dislodge.

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If you had ever seen a PArachutes de France toggle, you would definitely adopt that system.

How do they work?

[Snowball 0]

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I met someone this weekend who had a mod done to their bridle... Its a collapsible PC, so it must be cocked before every jump. A rigger moved the closing pin to the inside of the bridle, and created a window (much like the window that lets you view your kill line color). The pin would only be visible through the window (and therefore able to be inserted in the closing loop) if the pilot chute had been cocked.

I couldn't tell you how to make this mod yourself, but the theory seemed sound.

The theory is not sound at all. The bridal line needs to provide tensoin to the pin directly. The only way that can happen is if the pin is on the outer sheath. The problem with that system was that the pin got sucked up into the sheath with the closing loop still on the pin. U couldn't even reach around and pull it clear. Whammo-bammo U got yourself a pilot chute in tow.