halorob 0 #1 January 18, 2009 Hi. I was wondering if anyone has experience with the Vengeance and what is the closest comparison to its flight characteristics. I love the way it flies. The airlocks are becoming a pain though. I'm going to a 150 with a wingloading of 1.35. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #2 January 18, 2009 Crossfire 2 would be my guess, if you don't want a Samurai Maybe a Katana. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lilchief 1 #3 January 18, 2009 Quote Hi. Hi! Quote The airlocks are becoming a pain though. I'm going to a 150 with a wingloading of 1.35. nononononono....airlocks are niiiiiiiice! looove your airlocks, they are the goood side "Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci www.lilchief.no Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
halorob 0 #4 January 18, 2009 Maybe a 150 would be easier to get the air out of then the 170. I do the technique Brian Germain recommends when landing but I end up having to lay on it to get all the air out. I'll have to add it to the demo list. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #5 January 18, 2009 QuoteHi. I was wondering if anyone has experience with the Vengeance and what is the closest comparison to its flight characteristics. I love the way it flies. The airlocks are becoming a pain though. I'm going to a 150 with a wingloading of 1.35. Landing the canopy on its side so it collapses on itself like a flat pack will get most of the air out, with what's left being not much worse than any other ZP canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #6 January 19, 2009 Landing the canopy on its side so it collapses on itself like a flat pack will get most of the air out, with what's left being not much worse than any other ZP canopy. That's some funny stuff, I assume you meant laying the canopy on its side not landing it on its side."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #7 January 19, 2009 Quote Landing the canopy on its side so it collapses on itself like a flat pack will get most of the air out, with what's left being not much worse than any other ZP canopy. That's some funny stuff, I assume you meant laying the canopy on its side not landing it on its side. Landing would be when it first touches the ground. You land (preferably gracefully). Then the canopy lands. If it lands on its nose or tail you're going to run the slider up the lines, grab it by the tail, shake it, and still not get as much air out as if you turned sideways after stopping and landed the canopy on its side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #8 January 19, 2009 I see what you mean now, but when I first read it I was picturing a wingover swoop gone bad."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #9 January 19, 2009 Quotewith what's left being not much worse than any other ZP canopy. Disagree. It collects dirt, garbage, gravel inside the tunnels and its hard to get rid of them because of the airlocks..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
halorob 0 #10 January 19, 2009 Funny you mention that. When I hung my canopy up to connect the risers gravel fell out of it. Lol. It was pretty small and pebble sized but still I'd prefer not to have gravel in my canopy! I'm on all grass now so I don't have to worry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pakker 0 #11 January 19, 2009 I have a Vengeance 150, and the ground handling characteristics of airlocks get more manageable with the smaller sizes. For reference, lilchief flies a samurai 120, and sees no problem with airlocks on the ground. That said. according to PD, the Katana should fly similarly and cover the same performance envolope. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydivesg 7 #12 January 19, 2009 I have about 1000 jumps on two different Samurai 136s and 400 on the Katana. The Katana is a much more aggresive canopy with a much longer recovery arc. I have no problems with the airlocks on the Samurai. I think the smaller canopy has less touble than the larger ones. I'll be selling my Samurai soon. I like the canopy but I just like the Katana more. It does take more concentration to land than the SamuraiBe the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
halorob 0 #13 January 19, 2009 Thanks for sharing everyone! Appreciate it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheCaptain 2 #14 January 19, 2009 Back when I was jumping a Crossfire 2, I did several jumps on a Vengeancea and thought that they were pretty similar in flight. I would personally say that I thought the Crossfire 2 had just a little more dive but that was about it.Kirk He's dead Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lilchief 1 #15 January 20, 2009 I've also flown a sam 136 for 200+ jumps and demoed a sam 150 =) airlocks airlocks airlocks airlocks!! YEEEAH!...lol "Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci www.lilchief.no Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakyrat 1 #16 January 27, 2009 I fly a Samurai 136 and also a Katana 120. Both canopies take concentration but the Katana takes a little more because of my wingloading and the smaller size and it's just comes in steeper and faster. I made my first no-wind landing on the Sam last November and I must say it was SWEEEET. It was by far the easiest canopy to shut down in no winds and the airlocks kept it inflated throughout the whole landing sequence. Touchdown was extremely light with just a slow walk off at the end. I've also jumped the Sam in some strong winds and choppy air and it flew and landed great. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #17 January 28, 2009 Stiletto (if you want a shorter recovery arc) or Sabre2 (if you want a similar recovery arc). Similar canopies like crossfire2 or pilot would be equally valid... really any mid-to-high performance 9-cell today is going to have characteristics similar to a vengeance. I loved the way the vengeance flew, but it's the worst-opening canopy I've ever jumped. Sabre2 is a little rough on opening (though much better than vengeance), but flies similarly and has more float when you need it."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #18 January 28, 2009 Quote I loved the way the vengeance flew, it's the worst-opening canopy I've ever jumped ??? I love how mine opens. Aside from one slammer (can happen with any canopy) I get slow, smooth, on heading openings. Did a few wingsuit jumps with one even. Same with the 2 other vengeances I have quite a few jumps on, open fantastically, however 1 of those is now quite out of trim so yeah, rougher openings, but that's hardly the canopy's fault. Quote really any mid-to-high performance 9-cell today is going to have characteristics similar to a vengeance. Again with the ???? A pilot or sabre 2 don't come close to how a vengeance dives and turns. A vengeance is a HP canopy where the pilot and sabre 2 are intermediate, I've jumped (and jump) a lot of different canopies including pilot/sabre2/vengeance, I cannot image someone would think those canopies fly even remotely the same ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #19 January 29, 2009 Ahhhh airlocks. The answer to a question no-one was asking. You might as well claim that your canopy has elephant repellant on it. Now, you're going to see a lot of posts from people who can't understand why anyone would jump anything else, but from my experience, there's not enough of a trade off for the small benefits airlocks provide when set against the added cost and bulk. Remember also, that the Jedei, Vengeance and Samurai are designs of the early to mid 90's. (the Samurai is more contemporary). There's been a lot of improvements over general canopy design and construction in the las 13 years. At the time those canopies were first jumped, only PD were using a laser cutter to control fit and trim, so the extra rigidity of the airlocked designs definitely had it's advantages at the time. I've jumped a lot of these over the years, from the first proto Jedei that we used to call the Grape Ape at Z Hills, which was basically an airlocked Jonathan, to the Vengeance, and I'd have to say that in the 9 cell division, they don't perform any better than on par with Stilettos, Katanas, or Crossfire II's. Some people have downsized to the point on them, that they are mistaking the extra wingloading for performance from the airlocks. There's a reason airlocks were flavor of the month, and are quite rare to see now. I think Brian has the niche on them for anyone that wants what is essentially a hand built quality custom canopy. So, if you asking me what to get instead, I'd say any comparably sized 9 cell elliptical will do the job for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
