When to replace risers

[sberkovitz 0]

I bought a Vector II container DOM 1991 that looks to have the original risers with velcro toggles. The webbing on the front risers more so then the rear risers looks like it has had plenty of contact with the velcro and is frayed along the edges.

I am going to have my rigger OK them first before jumping, but I'm wondering if I should replace them before I take the reserve in to be repacked just to minimize the amount of time and trips back and forth required.

Is there any tell-tale sign on risers that they should be replaced, or is the fraying normal for containers with velcro?

Thanks.

-Steven

[likestojump 3]

hi Steven,

if anything, get it over with and get risers without Velcro. Veclro has a very bad habit of eating up lower steering lines.

post a pic of the risers, it's worth 1000x more than describing the damage :)

[sberkovitz 0]

I'm trying to do some cost minimization here (you know, recession and all) so unless they pose a saftey risk I am going to try and hold off on replacing them - I don't really expect to be using this container for all that long. Some photos attached.

-Steven

[dragon2 2]

Disclaimer: I'm not a rigger, but judging from your pics I would jump those risers. I'd probably run a lighter along them though (don't do that yourself). Looks to me like these will be okayed by your rigger.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Ronaldo 0]

I'm not a rigger either but the risers look good to me. Actually, they look really good for a Vector 2. You may cut the excess carefully with scissors and finish the edges with a lighter as mentioned just to make them look better (under you rigger’s supervision, please). By the pictures I would say your risers have very few jumps (they were only mistreated by the Velcro). I doubt you rigger will discard them but let him have a look.
Good jumps

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[Deyan 36]

Hm,check the area around the grommet.It doesn't look OK.

Blue skies

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[darkwing 5]

I am a rigger, and I'd be much more worried about the riser at the grommet than the velcro fraying. Probably time to pony up for some new risers. Of course a rigger that can actually look at and touch them should have more say than I do.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[sagan 0]

Not a rigger either, but looks also that the risers have "soft housings" for the extra cable length.

Not that it is dangerous per se but it may also be something for you to ask your local rigger the pros and cons of.

-Patrick

[sberkovitz 0]

Someone requested a sideview of the 3-ring, find attached.

The gromet seems to look worse in the photo then up close but I will definitely get my rigger to take a look at it.

Confirmed that the housing in the riser is a soft housing.

I guess the other thing worth mentioning is that I am sending this back to UPT to have a RSL installed - they are going to have to add the shackle to the riser to support this, so let me ask, would new risers come with this installed already? and if so, it seems like it might actually be cheaper to replace.

-Steven

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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hi Steven,

if anything, get it over with and get risers without Velcro. Veclro has a very bad habit of eating up lower steering lines.

Velcro is the superior toggle stowing method. Provided it's well-maintained, it prevents toggle fires. It gives you a place to stick your toggles to free up your hands for other things under canopy. It positively stows the brake toggle line so it doesn't get tangled on anything. Packers are unlikely to cause a toggle lock-up with velcro.

Provided that you bother to stick the toggles on immediately after landing it doesn't cause appreciable wear. Spectra steering lines need replacement due to shrinkage long before they become fuzzy.

[likestojump 3]

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hi Steven,

if anything, get it over with and get risers without Velcro. Veclro has a very bad habit of eating up lower steering lines.

Velcro is the superior toggle stowing method. Provided it's well-maintained, it prevents toggle fires. It gives you a place to stick your toggles to free up your hands for other things under canopy. It positively stows the brake toggle line so it doesn't get tangled on anything. Packers are unlikely to cause a toggle lock-up with velcro.

Provided that you bother to stick the toggles on immediately after landing it doesn't cause appreciable wear. Spectra steering lines need replacement due to shrinkage long before they become fuzzy.

In theory - you are right.
In practice... you are not :)

I have seen lots and lots of damage to risers and lower steering lines caused by velcro. And it was way premature to replace the brake lines if not for the damage.

Bottom line is that we all like things as simple as possible, not complex. Trulock toggles will generate a lot less need for upkeep than velcro if we factor our human side into the equation.

[sberkovitz 0]

Can anyone confirm that if I buy a new pair of risers from UPT, that they will have the RSL shackle pre-installend?

-Steven

[likestojump 3]

yes, they will have an RSL ring.
the RSL lanyard/shackle is part of a container and will cost extra

[diablopilot 2]

Those risers are done.

call these guys and get a new set, it's worth your safety. www.velocityrigs.com

Risers should be changed every two linesets or so, maybe 1000 jumps......

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[riggerrob 643]

I guess the other thing worth mentioning is that I am sending this back to UPT to have a RSL installed - they are going to have to add the shackle to the riser to support this, so let me ask, would new risers come with this installed already? and if so, it seems like it might actually be cheaper to replace.

[billvon 3,006]

>Velcro is the superior toggle stowing method.

In terms of reliability for new velcro, I would agree. However, it requires much more maintenance than non-velcro risers. This maintenance includes more frequent replacement of velcro, risers and lower steering lines.

In terms of reliability for an _average_ jumper, velcro is not all that reliable. People simply don't maintain velcro adequately.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I have seen lots and lots of damage to risers and lower steering lines caused by velcro. And it was way premature to replace the brake lines if not for the damage.

There could be 2 source of lower break line wear on risers with velcro: velcro and guide ring. How would you know which did the damage?Is there any point winning about it if the cost of replacement is about $5?

[sberkovitz 0]

The riser covers are also velcro

-Steven

[likestojump 3]

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I have seen lots and lots of damage to risers and lower steering lines caused by velcro. And it was way premature to replace the brake lines if not for the damage.

There could be 2 source of lower break line wear on risers with velcro: velcro and guide ring. How would you know which did the damage?Is there any point winning about it if the cost of replacement is about $5?

Are you serious ? Your just another theoretical rigger, kinda like Yuri is the theoretical WS flyer.

Guide ring is smooth, thus the wear caused by the ring will be high-speed burns, discoloration, etc. Velcro is burred, and causes fibers to be pulled out unevenly, visually giving the line a fuzzy appearance. To confuse the 2 would take a pure idiot.

The only time you can see similar damage caused by the ring would be when it has corroded and is not smooth anymore. And one should notice that quite easily, and act on it.

[crazydiver 0]

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I have seen lots and lots of damage to risers and lower steering lines caused by velcro. And it was way premature to replace the brake lines if not for the damage.

There could be 2 source of lower break line wear on risers with velcro: velcro and guide ring. How would you know which did the damage?Is there any point winning about it if the cost of replacement is about $5?

Are you serious ? Your just another theoretical rigger, kinda like Yuri is the theoretical WS flyer.

Guide ring is smooth, thus the wear caused by the ring will be high-speed burns, discoloration, etc. Velcro is burred, and causes fibers to be pulled out unevenly, visually giving the line a fuzzy appearance. To confuse the 2 would take a pure idiot.

The only time you can see similar damage caused by the ring would be when it has corroded and is not smooth anymore. And one should notice that quite easily, and act on it.

Wrong. Subtle hook/loop damage (most specifically hook) to lower steering lines will do similar damage to them that a guide ring can do. Both can look "fuzzy" as you say. Obviously, severe hook damage will be much worse looking, but both will produce the fuzzy look. You need to relax a little before you decide to call someone an idiot.

Cheers,
Travis

[likestojump 3]

Could you explain in a bit more detail please ?

Logically, the slider grommets should fuzz up the lines as well, as they create a similar physical movement on the lines they pass over.

thank you !

[crazydiver 0]

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Could you explain in a bit more detail please ?

Logically, the slider grommets should fuzz up the lines as well, as they create a similar physical movement on the lines they pass over.

thank you !

All of those things can produce similar looking damage to the lower steering lines (friction from the slider grommets, guide rings, or hook damage). Clearly, severe damage from the velcro will look much worse than a little fuzziness on the line, but even steering lines on rigs without velcro are likely to look fuzzy as well after time/use.

I'm saying that it is not idiotic to think that velcro damage can look very similar to damage from slider/guide rings on many types of line.

And even if it were wrong, it wouldn't make someone an "idiot."

Cheers,
Travis

[likestojump 3]

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Could you explain in a bit more detail please ?

Logically, the slider grommets should fuzz up the lines as well, as they create a similar physical movement on the lines they pass over.

thank you !

All of those things can produce similar looking damage to the lower steering lines (friction from the slider grommets, guide rings, or hook damage). Clearly, severe damage from the velcro will look much worse than a little fuzziness on the line, but even steering lines on rigs without velcro are likely to look fuzzy as well after time/use.

I'm saying that it is not idiotic to think that velcro damage can look very similar to damage from slider/guide rings on many types of line.

And even if it were wrong, it wouldn't make someone an "idiot."

I think you and I are disagreeing over semantics.

I would like to see what others chime in, and will type more later.

thank you !

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Are you serious ? Your just another theoretical rigger, kinda like Yuri is the theoretical WS flyer.

Guide ring is smooth, thus the wear caused by the ring will be high-speed burns, discoloration, etc. Velcro is burred, and causes fibers to be pulled out unevenly, visually giving the line a fuzzy appearance. To confuse the 2 would take a pure idiot.

Once I got a pair of riser with velcro. My lower brake line started to look fuzzy. I've have chosen other means for stow them and I have cut the velcro off. Rings were smooth, but lower break lines got fuzzy after replacement.
Your move, cheap wonder....

[billvon 3,006]

Enough with the personal attacks, guys.