SarahC07 0 #1 March 10, 2005 So, do you think you have free will? I am currently studying this in my philosophy class... and I'm just curious as to what you all think. We are basically discussing a battle between determinism and indeterminism.... (As dictionary.com defines) Free will: The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will. Please explain your vote.... with your thoughts, if you like) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #2 March 10, 2005 well, by the book we do not have free will. I want to skydive but in order to do that I have to waste time behind a desk to get money to drive my car that I have to fill up with gas in order to go to the dropzone and skydive. if I had free will I would quit my job and still be able to do what I wanted to do thats one example of being force to do something that one would not do normally, given the choiceMy photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
windcatcher 0 #3 March 10, 2005 Sarah, that is not a stupid question we as humans, have choices to make. NOBODY can force us to do anything....ultimately whatever actions we take are ours and ours alone. Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #4 March 10, 2005 well maybve but there no matter what we do we are limited to the choices presented to us. so yes in my life I feel free but If I was in class with her I would have to take this type of standMy photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #5 March 10, 2005 QuoteSarah, that is not a stupid question we as humans, have choices to make. NOBODY can force us to do anything....ultimately whatever actions we take are ours and ours alone. The question is pretty much whether YOU can force yourself to do anything. Are you truly free to pick any path through life? Or do your genetics and socialization (ongoing) determine the path you'll take for you? Is the decision whether or not you associate with your family one you actively make? Or is that behavior governed by the person you've become? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyclearjohn 0 #6 March 10, 2005 We have the capacity for free will. Do we use it? We frequently do not, for to pierce the barriers of illusion and delusion requires a mind either exceptionally balanced ...or exceptionally deranged. If the latter, is that free will? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
genoyamamoto 0 #7 March 10, 2005 No fair answering a question with 4 more questions! edit to add: I kinda takes Hobbes' point of view on this matter. Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me Feel the hate... Photos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickMcMahon 0 #8 March 10, 2005 Sarah: Don't know if this will help in your studies, but if you go to www.dickmcmahon.com then click on the "Being a Monkey" section ... on the last page are some thoughts about free-will which maybe you can use. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JonBonGraham 0 #9 March 10, 2005 Quotewell, by the book we do not have free will. I want to skydive but in order to do that I have to waste time behind a desk to get money to drive my car that I have to fill up with gas in order to go to the dropzone and skydive. if I had free will I would quit my job and still be able to do what I wanted to do thats one example of being force to do something that one would not do normally, given the choice Sorry, but I don't think that reasoning holds. Do you CHOOSE to fill up your car, etc. in order to jump? Does anyone really MAKE you? Or do you recognise that "If I want to jump, I have to do and first"? Durham University Freefall Club Grounds For Divorce website (band I'm in) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #10 March 10, 2005 well I see why you would present that quesiton but as I said in a previous reply to this thread we are limited to the options presented to us. so if I want to go skydiving I have to fill up the car etc. its not really standing at the puimp that is the driving factor of not having free will. its what I have to do to get the gas in to my car. ( work at a job that the illusion of our defined reality has trained us to be a part of)My photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JonBonGraham 0 #11 March 10, 2005 Quote(As dictionary.com defines) Free will: The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will. Yes, we are limited to the choices given to us (although one could argue there are an infinite number of choices) but do you think that we decide which choice to make (you could fill your car up at petrol station A or petrol station B, you could pay for the petrol or do a runner, you could ask a mate for a lift, you could wear clothes or go naked, etc.), or is it predetermined in some way, either by the world around us or some "higher power"? Durham University Freefall Club Grounds For Divorce website (band I'm in) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samhussey 0 #12 March 10, 2005 I think everyone has free will, but it is constrained by norms and conventions in society. So there can be no way to practice your free will, except in a theoretical situation where you are the only living thing. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JonBonGraham 0 #13 March 10, 2005 QuoteI think everyone has free will, but it is constrained by norms and conventions in society. What do you mean by 'constrained'? Do you mean that people stick to social convention, like wearing clothes and eating with a knife and fork and such? Durham University Freefall Club Grounds For Divorce website (band I'm in) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcarchangel 0 #14 March 10, 2005 My Magic Eight Ball says "NO".------------------------------------------------------- "These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They're back! There's no choice left, and I'm ready for war." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 219 #15 March 10, 2005 QuoteSo, do you think you have free will? I am currently studying this in my philosophy class... and I'm just curious as to what you all think. We are basically discussing a battle between determinism and indeterminism.... (As dictionary.com defines) Free will: The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will. Please explain your vote.... with your thoughts, if you like) It depends on how literal you want to be - External circumstances - could that be others peoples attempts on excersizing free will interfereing with yours?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #16 March 10, 2005 Nobody here, and I stress NOBODY, has free will. We have cognitive thought which alone precludes free will. If we so much as think about a pro/con relationship about anything we do, free will is gone. Our thought processes guide us, and those are based on things we learned, or didn't learn, while growing up. Those with free will, honestly, are those that don't think. hey just "do." That's not human. That's animal.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SarahC07 0 #17 March 10, 2005 This is all very interesting to me...One of the philosophers we recently studied believes that you have free will... William James: 1. There is no scientific evidence that can prove either the truth of determinism or the truth of indeterminism. 2. So, I must believe the view that is more subjectively satisfying/rational. 3. If I adopt determinism, I must adopt pessimism and the adoption of pessimism is not subjectively satisfying/rational. 4. We make judgments of regret and determinism entails that these judgments are irrational. 5. Indeterminism entails that these judgments are rational. 6. Belief in indeterminism is more rational than belief in determinism. He provides the example of a murder to support his association of determinism and pessimism. If a person is murdered, according to determinism, there is nothing one could of done to stop it. Nothing. THAT is how he explains the pessimism if determinism was true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #18 March 10, 2005 You are confusing the consequences of the choice with the ability to make it. We all have the ability to make the choices. The wise ones balance them against the results. But that is our choosing, again a free will choice. As Rush said: You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice. If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill; I will choose a path that's clear I will choose freewill.-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buried 0 #19 March 10, 2005 according to some, they say they could predict most actions of individuals if they had the history of their life and extrapolate off of those past events. interesting theory Where is my fizzy-lifting drink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #20 March 10, 2005 1> If I don't have free will but say I do, I had no choice in the matter. 2> If I don't have free will and say I don't, I still had no choice in the matter. 3> If I do have free will but say I don't, then I'm really wrong. 4> If I do have free will and say I do, then I'm right. So the obvious choice is 4. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beverly 1 #21 March 10, 2005 Everyone has free will (Unless they are in school or prison) You can make things happen for yourself. If you want to do something, there may be obsticles, but with some innovative thinking, anything can be achieved. You can make your own luck and can screw up your own Karma. It is all up to you..... I think true friendship is under-rated Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #22 March 10, 2005 Quoteaccording to some, they say they could predict most actions of individuals if they had the history of their life and extrapolate off of those past events. interesting theory Exactly, which is why there is no true free will, just guided choices.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #23 March 10, 2005 QuoteYou are confusing the consequences of the choice with the ability to make it. And you are confusing freedom with free will. Being able to make choices is freedom. Having a true ability to pick ANY choice is part of free will. It's just not compatible with cognitive thought. Really.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #24 March 10, 2005 QuoteNobody here, and I stress NOBODY, has free will. We have cognitive thought which alone precludes free will. If we so much as think about a pro/con relationship about anything we do, free will is gone. Our thought processes guide us, and those are based on things we learned, or didn't learn, while growing up. Do you believe that Galileo, Newton, and Einstein were geniuses by circumstance? A lot of the theories and concepts they wrote about in their works were radically new, not only not using what they had learned, but completely trouncing it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
genoyamamoto 0 #25 March 10, 2005 The question of free-will here pertains to the notion of a deterministic universe or a non-deterministic universe, i.e. in a deterministic universe our current thoughts and actions are a product of all the previous events that have occured in our universe: we are a slave to history. In this case we are slaves to history. It's a very Newtonian concept. For a determinist, even those who don't think in your example have no free-will, since they are themselves a product of history. Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me Feel the hate... Photos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
