Toggle to unTwist?

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They teach in the FJC that if you have linetwists, to not even think about touching a toggle until the twists are cleared. I had some pretty nasty line twists on my first canopy jump (5+ twists). Luckily for me I did exactly as I was told, and it didn't even take that long to untwist. Most likely if I pulled a toggle, I would have induced my own spin, even if it was the magical, "correct one."

On such occassion, I wouldn't touch toggles too, nor would I teach it or recommend it, as said before.

Yet I've learned a lot just by reading such discussions.
Exept hohohuhu morons having fun, people are relaxed, having time to ask or answer exactly what they wanted to. There's no such conversation live. The good part I mean.

And yes, since not knowing what to pull, it's 50:50 whether you'd twist it more or untwist.
Until you differentiate red and silver - don't put any gear on!
Until you differentiate correct and wrong toggle - don't even THINK of it!
And maybe even then.

Are we clear or we are clear on what I'm saying?

What goes around, comes later.

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and yes I already know about using toggles to get out of line twists... i wont do it but i know how to.

How come you know that?
Care to share with us?

Nobody ever taught me that

edit: wanna be polite

What goes around, comes later.

[chrismgtis 0]

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Why don't you ask Brian Germain his advice on W/L for Jump Numbers

Wingloading / Number of Jumps
1.0 / 1.1 / 100-199
1.2 / 200-299
1.3 / 300-399
1.4 / 400-499
1.5 / 500-599
1.6 / 600-699
1.7 / 700-799
1.8 / 800-899
1.9 / 900-999
2.0 / 1000+

I'll never jump a 2.0 WL. Even if I accumulate 10,000 jumps and 5000 of those are made within a year time period.

You guys are nuts.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I'll never jump a 2.0 WL. Even if I accumulate 10,000 jumps and 5000 of those are made within a year time period.

You guys are nuts. Tongue

I sware that I never use a fast canopy in 2001.
I have been jumping a size 105, WL 2.0+ since this May.
Never say never.

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Here's a friend whose rig I jump.
295 jumps, Cayenne 150 at 1.3
Just like Brian recommends, if I may add.

"I've probably screwed packing 'cause I saw twisting even before fabric got out of bag.
While canopy was inflating it continued to twist. A looong linetwist, 10+.
I immediately determined direction and grabbed correct risers with all my strenght.
Nothing happenned so I grabbed the opposite risers which resulted in one more twist.
It was 2000 ft when I've started kicking out. It took me 600 ft to kick it out of linetwist".

No spin, good.
Low opening, bad.

He was the one, smiling happy when I said that my toggle theory worked for me.
He credited me for being able to determine direction in a blink.
Yet, he didn't give it a shot with a toggle and he's not pulling my balls for discussing it.
Nor am I pulling his, we're straight.

Risers - abnormal strenght needed
Kicking - slow

and another futule effort: wanna disscuss my WL or my plung date - stick your head in and pull tha water, tell us then what happened

What goes around, comes later.

[superwoman8433 0]

I am going to make one post on this thread and leave.

Format: your subject is "toggle to untwist?" but in reading ALL your posts it doesn't look like you are questioning but informing. There is a reason it isn't taught...you can make things even worse. I had a close friend go in earlier this year under a spinning mal. He had over 6,000+ jumps, why do you think he didn't do what you are saying?????

Maybe the fact that he might not have even been able to reach his cutaway handles, much less his toggles.

I have one question for you..... With all the experience that has responded to your post, the people who have given their two cents, look at their numbers. Do you think there might be a reason WHY they don't adhere to your views and thoughts?

I have a boyfriend with over 12,000+ jumps, competitive swooper, AFF1, TI, canopy coach, blah blah blah. He has never told me to get out of line twists by taking VALUABLE time reading a twist and giving the proper toggle input. You need to realize that yes this is one way to combat line twists but one wrong input can drastically make the situation worse not to mention putting more wear on the lines, which is probably one of the reasons its not taught. Why do something that might make the problem worse?

As to your WL, be safe and stay current.

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

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and yes I already know about using toggles to get out of line twists... i wont do it but i know how to.

How come you know that?
Care to share with us?

Nobody ever taught me that

edit: wanna be polite

It wasn't taught in my FJC or by one of the instructors at my DZ. I was told by a guy who was visiting the DZ. (he is an instructor at a different DZ) We were talking about line twists and he brought up the toggle thing. I had line twists the next day but i decided to kick out of them. flying a 210 w/led at 1.0 I really have no need to use toggles as the canopy is quite docile. i have yet to have twists put me in a spin on my back and i had about 5 or 6 twists on one.

One more thing to add. Just don't set yourself up for line twists. do a good job of packing and make sure you have good body position on opening and you shouldn't have to deal with line twists all that often. I used to run into them quite a bit and then i was told to focus on those 2 aspects and it made all the difference. another habit i got into (i'll let the experienced guys argue whether its a good or bad habit) is to grab the risers as soon as the canopy is out and pull apart to battle line twists before they start.

[billvon 2,991]

>Obviously nobody taught me this procedure.
>What do You think, why is that?

Because it is a very poor procedure for many reasons. It would be akin to teaching skydivers to cut away their mains with their hook knives to avoid having to use their cutaway handles. Cutaway handles work better than hook knives, and thus we use them over hook knives.

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-
your subject is "toggle to untwist?" but in reading ALL your posts it doesn't look like you are questioning but informing.

-Do you think there might be a reason WHY they don't adhere to your views and thoughts?

-I am going to make one post on this thread and leave.

- Of coarse I'm provoking, in order 4 us to learn more.
- Yes, they,ve proved that they're rigidly cocky.
- Oh? O.K. but thank You for your reply.. and I'm really sorry you haven't pop up earlier!
I will try hard not to reply here anymore.

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Just don't set yourself up for line twists. do a good job of packing and make sure you have good body position on opening and you shouldn't have to deal with line twists all that often.

Thank you for consideration, Yes, I mean it.

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Because it is a very poor procedure for many reasons.

What took you so long? Did you enjoy it so far?

superwoman8433 Tnx for setting me free!

What goes around, comes later.

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guess what - I'm back. I know, I know what I have said)

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Format: your subject is "toggle to untwist?" but in reading ALL your posts it doesn't look like you are questioning but informing.

Well, yes. Somebody's gotta do that too.
I don't wanna be alone risking a "new stuff".

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There is a reason it isn't taught...you can make things even worse.

Sure you can, you can allways do worse.

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With all the experience that has responded to your post, the people who have given their two cents, look at their numbers. Do you think there might be a reason WHY they don't adhere to your views and thoughts?

Is there any possibility they're afraid? Of any responsibillity?

He has never told me to get out of line twists by taking VALUABLE time reading a twist and giving the proper toggle input

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As far as I've got it - this is the shortest time "experiment" with an most potential result?
Give it a thought.. and teach me/us why not (providing you know what you're doing)

***You need to realize that yes this is one way to combat line twists but one wrong input can drastically make the situation worse

Why the wrong input? Am I really wasting my and your time saying how easy is to know The correct toggle?

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As to your WL, be safe and stay current.

That's really nice, I appreciate it, tnx
As for Bill

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Because it is a very poor procedure for many reasons. It would be akin to teaching skydivers to cut away their mains with their hook knives to avoid having to use their cutaway handles. Cutaway handles work better than hook knives, and thus we use them over hook knives.

By reading your posts, I've expected you to be more exact like you've been before.
Kinda looks like you're not being sure of whether is the right place or time to say what you think.

Heh, the Saga continues

What goes around, comes later.

[billvon 2,991]

>I've expected you to be more exact like you've been before.

To be exact:

It is difficult to tell which brake to pull, because you cannot rely on the direction you are turning to tell. You have to be able to see the twists, deduce which direction they are in and be able to pull the opposite brake. Given that some people's vision is better than others, some helmets have better visibility than others, some people experience fogging, some people cannot see well above their heads and given that the solution is not intuitively obvious (i.e. you have to pull the brake line on the side that has the rearmost group from your perspective) it is reasonable to expect that some people will choose the wrong side.

On lightly loaded canopies with a few twists, line twists are generally not an issue. The canopy does not spin up as easily, it is flying slowly in brakes (so collisions are less of an issue) and if you wait long enough they come out on their own. So pulling a brake can a) make the line twists come out a little faster or b) cause a malfunction and necessitate a cutaway.

On lightly loaded canopies with severe twists, you often cannot see the twists at all because your head will likely be pinned. In those cases you just have to guess, and that gives you a 50/50 chance of being right. Indeed, if you choose incorrectly and make the line twists significantly worse, you may not be able to cut away at all - and thus are likely to experience a reserve entanglement; such entanglements are often not survivable.

On heavily loaded canopies, line twists may require rapid resolution, because 1) some canopies get away from you easily, 2) you are descending rapidly and 3) your forward speed is also faster. In such situations you must react fast.

If you pull the wrong toggle in that case, you must cut away _instantly_, because the dive will get much worse very quickly, and you will likely have locked the brake line in the resulting twist (so you can't just let it go.) The speed of rotation could easily prevent you from getting your hands to the handles - and if you do reach them, you may be cutting away with a toggle still in your hand. (The alternative is to take the time to get your hand out of the toggle, and you may not have time to do that; G forces build very rapidly.) You also may find that the line twists have gotten so bad that the risers are involved, and that the cutaway becomes difficult or impossible; G loading will have the same effect. Riser inserts help with but do not prevent this problem.

If you pull the correct toggle, the canopy will start turning rapidly in the other direction. If you pull it hard enough, it will turn right into a line twist in the _other_ direction; the speed at which this can happen may prevent you from stopping it with the other toggle. This will also cause a mal that you will likely have to cut away from.

If you do not pull it hard enough, and the twists allow it, the canopy will spin up even harder - since you have released one brake and not the other.

So you have to pull it with _just_ enough force (which varies depending on how many line twists you have) release it immediately when the twists are beginning to come out and respond instantly with the opposite toggle to stop a resultant counterspin.

Note that much of the above applies to risers, with the caveat that since risers/line groups carry much more of the weight of the canopy, "brake line lock" is far less likely.

So you have two basic cases:

1) Large canopy. If you do not use toggles, line twists clear easily. If you use the correct toggle, they clear even more rapidly. If you use the wrong toggle, you may give yourself a mal.

2) Small canopy. If you use the incorrect brake, you have a pretty much guaranteed mal. If you use the correct brake, pulling it too hard or too lightly may give you a mal as well.

Given the above, it seems like a poor choice. The odds that it will help you significantly are small, and the odds that it will harm you are high.

[mdrejhon 8]

billvon, always enjoy reading your posts - very interesting to know the lack of correlation, especially if I find myself under spinning linetwists I can no longer recover from.

Even though I'm not sure I'll eventually be flying canopies aggressive enough to pin my neck (er, chin) against my chest in severe linetwists, I know "never say never"...

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Was it worth it or was it worth it?
If I knew how to ask him more directly.. I would.

This is A history, thanks Bill.
You can comment on my wl any of time

What goes around, comes later.

[normiss 800]

I jump a Spectre 150, it's pinned my chin to my chest.
I don't believe it takes a very aggressive canopy.

[dragon2 2]

A safire 135 (WL 1.2 or less) pinned my head to my chest so hard it hurt for 2 days.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[gpdm 0]

A Firebolt 218 loaded at 1.15 once opened with line twists that rapidly went to hell and threw me around the sky like a ragdoll. Even big, lightly loaded canopies can ruin your day. That reserve repack was the best damn fifty bucks I ever spent.

[mdrejhon 8]

Wow, I believe you -- more the reason to pay close attention to opening, even at my current 1.15 wingload.

[grimmie 186]

Here's a thought for all of you guys.
I was jumping a Stilletto 150 @1.5 about 12 years ago. I had about 6 or 7 twists on opening during a jump at Skydive AZ.
I looked up and started kicking, fighting it determined to get out of the situation without chopping!
I started to get almost to the last twists and realized i was at about 700ft!
No worries as I got out of the twists and landed in the peas! Great job!
John Lemming, Airspeed video man at the time came up to me laughing and said ' you nearly killed the Airspeed 8 way team"! "Nice job but we all had to get out of your way".
I learned a very valuable lesson that day. Duh, I'm not the only guy in the sky.
Don't screw with line twists on a loaded canopy, because a collision will be sure death for two of us!!!!!!!!
Just my 2 cents.