commuter train derails in LA

[AggieDave 6]

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I -do- however cringe when people completely -not- at fault are killed.

Then you might want to write your state legislator about the scores of motorcyclists killed each year by simply riding down the road, from people running into them, over them and through them simply by not paying attention.

That would be a better direction of your frustration and energies. As you stated, this is the first time someon on the trains has been killed, look at the numbers and see what battle needs to be fought first.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ahegeman 0]

That is exactly my point. Its an extremely low probability event, it hasn't happened in years, and it probably will not happen again for a very long time, if ever.

This one is particularly bad because one train derailed into an oncoming train. The odds of a car even derailing a train are very small, and the odds of it doing it at the exact moment an oncoming train is on an adjacent track are even smaller, and the odds of two trains colliding into each other while next to yet another parked train are even smaller still. Yet you propose that Metrolink spend 100s of millions of dollars, evict thousands of people from their homes, and possibly drive thousands of riders into even more dangerous territory to maybe protect against something that may not happen again for decades. That will waste resources that could have been better spent, and in the end probably result in even more deaths.

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There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'.
--Dave Barry

[ltdiver 3]

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I -do- however cringe when people completely -not- at fault are killed.

The direct your energies at locking up drunk drivers for 10 years at a time......

What makes you think that I'm not a member of MADD? I wish they -would- lock up DD's for a LONG time. Especially if they've killed.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[ltdiver 3]

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Then you might want to write your state legislator about the scores of motorcyclists killed each year by simply riding down the road, from people running into them, over them and through them simply by not paying attention.

Those who kill -should- be sentenced and locked up.

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That would be a better direction of your frustration and energies. As you stated, this is the first time someon on the trains has been killed, look at the numbers and see what battle needs to be fought first.

Tell that to those who lost family members today. btw, the count is up from 10 to 11 lost and they still haven't been able to reach everyone still trapped in the wreckage.

Why let the 'minor' (in your opinion) offenses by ignored? Why not make things safer. You -know- that the lawsuits will demand it, so why not be pro-active? It would build consumer confidence instead of casting shadows of doubt. It would build usership, not loose it.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[JustaBill 0]

As some one that works for the railroad, I don't think the "push" mode is really an issue. I've seen trains hit cars and trucks with an engine in the lead and derail. If I remember right a truck pulled into the path of an Amtrak somewhere in Illinois a few years ago and derailed the whole train. I've also seen bigger heavier freight engines derail just by hitting a car. The problem is the morons we keep hitting, not the operation.

As for turning the train around it's actually a pretty big production with lots of time involved and as stated before would probably drive riders away due to the delays. People just aren't patient enough to put up with the added time. The only feasable solution I see to the "push-pull" thing is putting an engine on each end. To do that the railroad would have to double the size of it's engine fleet at roughly 5 million an engine. Just to throw a number out there assume they have 100 engines (which is probably a really low number) That's 500 million dollars. The only way to stop these kinds of tragedies is education and grade separation. But grade separation is cost prohibitive as well.

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I've done so much, with so little, for so long
I'm now expected to do everything with nothing forever

[ahegeman 0]

They've got right around 40 engines. They probably run F59s. $5M seems a bit steep to me though. I'd have said right around $2.5M, including the upgrades they have to do for CA operations.

Still $100M dollars, though, not to mention ongoing maintenance.

---------------------------------------------------------------
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'.
--Dave Barry

[JustaBill 0]

I was goin by what they tell us they pay for brand new freight engines

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I've done so much, with so little, for so long
I'm now expected to do everything with nothing forever

[ltdiver 3]

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I was goin by what they tell us they pay for brand new freight engines

Let's see how high the $$ amount of their lawsuits add up to.

When a bridge collapses in an earthquake you just don't build another bridge just like the one that fell. You build a better one. You can't stop earthquakes....just like you can't stop the desperate or the stupid that drive on the tracks.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[billvon 3,074]

>Then you might want to write your state legislator about the scores
>of motorcyclists killed each year . . . .

No! Go after motorists that kill bicyclists! The bikers they kill are mostly innocent children. Or pedestrians. Go after pedestrian-killing motorists first if you really care about innocent victims getting killed . . .

There are lots of causes out there. Taking one on doesn't mean you are encouraging (or ignoring) the others.

[justinb138 0]

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I -do- however cringe when people completely -not- at fault are killed.

Then you might want to write your state legislator about the scores of motorcyclists killed each year by simply riding down the road, from people running into them, over them and through them simply by not paying attention.

That would be a better direction of your frustration and energies. As you stated, this is the first time someon on the trains has been killed, look at the numbers and see what battle needs to be fought first.

From my past experiences, lawmakers don't seem to care about motorcyclists getting killed, seems there aren't enough of us to really be seen as an issue (unless you bring up motorcycle emissions tests, then we are a huge problem). It sucks because most people that plow over a motorcyclist because they wern't paying attention due to a cell phone, etc(blow through a stop sign, stoplight), don't get so much as a traffic ticket. When someone dies on a motorcycle, people seem to think "Well, motorcycles are danerous, thats why they died", not because some jackass made a left turn at a busy intersection without looking and "never saw them there". I've had two people pull that move on me and luckily I didn't hit them.

[/rant]

[AggieDave 6]

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From my past experiences, lawmakers don't seem to care about motorcyclists getting killed, seems there aren't enough of us to really be seen as an issue (unless you bring up motorcycle emissions tests, then we are a huge problem). It sucks because most people that plow over a motorcyclist because they wern't paying attention due to a cell phone, etc(blow through a stop sign, stoplight), don't get so much as a traffic ticket. When someone dies on a motorcycle, people seem to think "Well, motorcycles are danerous, thats why they died", not because some jackass made a left turn at a busy intersection without looking and "never saw them there". I've had two people pull that move on me and luckily I didn't hit them.

See, its obvious that you ride, but Ltdiver and BillVon doesn't, they're looking at it from a safe in the steel cage perspective.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[lawrocket 3]

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From my past experiences, lawmakers don't seem to care about motorcyclists getting killed, seems there aren't enough of us to really be seen as an issue (unless you bring up motorcycle emissions tests, then we are a huge problem). It sucks because most people that plow over a motorcyclist because they wern't paying attention due to a cell phone, etc(blow through a stop sign, stoplight), don't get so much as a traffic ticket. When someone dies on a motorcycle, people seem to think "Well, motorcycles are danerous, thats why they died", not because some jackass made a left turn at a busy intersection without looking and "never saw them there". I've had two people pull that move on me and luckily I didn't hit them.

See, its obvious that you ride, but Ltdiver and BillVon doesn't, they're looking at it from a safe in the steel cage perspective.

I'm not so sure about that, Dave. Billvon is merely focusing back to the issue of train safety. When someone craters in on a low pull, we talk about altitude awareness, not "if you wanna save lives, talk about hooking it in."

I believe that not only will the culprit in this incident go to jail (he turned his bad day into an even worse one) but that MetroRail will be facing some lawsuits over this one from the heirs of the deceased and from the injured because there is the possibility that it could have been handled safely.

We'll find out in a couple of years what the outcomes are.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,074]

>See, its obvious that you ride, but Ltdiver and BillVon doesn't,
>they're looking at it from a safe in the steel cage perspective.

I've been hit twice and came very close a third time. I was lucky - the worst damage was a broken thumb (and a lot of skin lost.) It's hard for people like you to understand what it's like - you have a 300 pound machine to help you take the impact, I have a 10 pound one.

Ain't the high horse great?

[Duckwater 0]

I work for a railroad and I can say that running ML with a Cab Car might have contributed to this derailment. The lack of mass on the head end of the train might make it derail easier under certain circumstances. However, the real issue is crossings at grade, which are always a problem for all trains.

My guess is that the FRA will ban passenger trains running with cab cars over crossings at grade. Economical or not. This would mean that the locomotive cost would double. There is no way to wye all these trains hundreds of times daily.

Unfortunately, the general public loves to run around gates, run into the sides of parked trains and to commit suicide by train.

I wish these a-holes that commit suicide would think about the Conductor that has to see his hundreds of body parts splashed all over. And, the fact that they could kill the crew and passengers while in the process is now obvious.

You need to look at the overall safety provided by the railroads. All of those thousands of riders on ML daily are not driving thousands of cars, probably preventing countless accidents. When you see all those intermodal containers and trailers go by, there are thousands of trucks not on the road.....

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[AggieDave 6]

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I've been hit twice and came very close a third time. I was lucky - the worst damage was a broken thumb (and a lot of skin lost.) It's hard for people like you to understand what it's like - you have a 300 pound machine to help you take the impact, I have a 10 pound one.

Ain't the high horse great?

You also forget that I used to be a very avid biker and have been hit by vehicles twice and run off the road once while riding my Specialized A1FS on the road to get to a trail. The worst I recieved was a broken helmet (it did its job very well) and road rash, thank god.

300lbs is lightweight for a crusier motorcycle, even my 800cc Vulcan weighs in at about 600lbs with fluids.

Anyways, my point (which apparently has been ignored or overlooked) is that overall the safety record of the commuter trains has been very good, although when someone does something like this, there's not much good any sort of train will do push or pull and spending enormous amounts of money to fix a problem that doesn't really truely present its self as a continuous problem is a waste and that there are other issues that need to be addressed. Other issues that are very important for the safety of a larger number of people.



As a side note, I bet this asshat ends getting basically away with it by pleading insanity and ends up wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars of the CA tax payer's money by the end of it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[justinb138 0]

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You also forget that I used to be a very avid biker and have been hit by vehicles twice and run off the road once while riding my Specialized A1FS on the road to get to a trail. The worst I recieved was a broken helmet (it did its job very well) and road rash, thank god.

I've been run of the road once, and nearly ran over while riding in a field by someone off-roading in a truck while on my Specialized Hard Rock Pro. No injuries as of yet. Specialized bikes kick ass.

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300lbs is lightweight for a crusier motorcycle, even my 800cc Vulcan weighs in at about 600lbs with fluids.

My 850cc Marauder wieghs about that too. Only motorcycle I know that weighs 300lbs is the little Ninja 250, and its dry weight is listed as 302, not that it matters

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Anyways, my point (which apparently has been ignored or overlooked) is that overall the safety record of the commuter trains has been very good, although when someone does something like this, there's not much good any sort of train will do push or pull and spending enormous amounts of money to fix a problem that doesn't really truely present its self as a continuous problem is a waste and that there are other issues that need to be addressed. Other issues that are very important for the safety of a larger number of people.

True, but the media has to stir up some controvery over something.

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As a side note, I bet this asshat ends getting basically away with it by pleading insanity and ends up wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars of the CA tax payer's money by the end of it.

Probably. He is directly responsible for the deaths of 11 people (so far), injuries of hundreds, the destruction of a few trains, and probably hundreds of lawsuits against the train company, and most likely won't spend a day in jail.

[ltdiver 3]

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I work for a railroad and I can say that running ML with a Cab Car might have contributed to this derailment. The lack of mass on the head end of the train might make it derail easier under certain circumstances. However, the real issue is crossings at grade, which are always a problem for all trains.

My guess is that the FRA will ban passenger trains running with cab cars over crossings at grade. Economical or not.

Yes. Let's start somewhere.

An interesting read here...

http://danger-ahead.railfan.net/reports/rep2001/selby20010228_rs.html

"Pushing a rake of coaches is little different from pulling them. The speed and control over the train is the same and they are quite safe PROVIDING the train stays on the track. As an example of this, take a toy wooden train with no track on a table top. Hold the locomotive and pull the train along. The locomotive will go where it is pulled and the coaches will duly follow. Now put the locomotive at the rear and push the train with the locomotive. Without the guiding influence of the track the coaches go anywhere almost immediately.

The inherent weakness in the "push-pull" arrangement is therefore ready for exploitation should the front of the train be lifted from the track."

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[justinb138 0]

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As a side note, I bet this asshat ends getting basically away with it by pleading insanity and ends up wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars of the CA tax payer's money by the end of it.

Hmm. Maybe not..

GLENDALE, Calif. - The suicidal man who authorities say caused the chain-reaction train derailment that killed 11 people has been charged with multiple counts of murder and could face the death penalty, the district attorney said Thursday.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6870372/

[AggieDave 6]

The death penalty? In CA?

Wow, those elitest liberals sing a different tune when its on their home turf.

I bet if he actually gets the penalty, that groups of people appeal for him and appeal and appeal and ends up costing the CA tax payers a fuckload of money.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[justinb138 0]

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The death penalty? In CA?

Ah, forgot it was CA. When was the last time they actually executed anyone sentanced to death?

[Shotgun 1]

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Ah, forgot it was CA. When was the last time they actually executed anyone sentanced to death?

A little over a week ago.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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Anyways, my point (which apparently has been ignored or overlooked) is that overall the safety record of the commuter trains has been very good, although when someone does something like this, there's not much good any sort of train will do push or pull and spending enormous amounts of money to fix a problem that doesn't really truely present its self as a continuous problem is a waste and that there are other issues that need to be addressed. Other issues that are very important for the safety of a larger number of people.

Shall we wait until it does?

I say that tongue-in-cheek...I understand your point of concentrating resources to fix the problems that present themselves more regularly...however, I'd still understand trying to correct a system to prevent a major catastrophy such as this if it's possible.

Example: Influenza effects thousands of children per year. Therefore, educating parents on how to prevent contraction of the flu is needed and can begin immediately. -However, that doesn't mean we should give up on a cure for Autism because we won't realize the CURE (<--clicky ) tomorrow.

-Now then there seems to be a debate here as to whether or not preventing this train derailment scenario is possible at all, to which I have no personal opinon as I don't have any knowledge of the subject matter.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[AggieDave 6]

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A little over a week ago.

Well, for someone from TX that's like 50 years ago...

Just kidding.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Shotgun 1]

Ha Ha...

Here's a link about it (for anyone who cares): http://www.capitalnews9.com/content/headlines/?ArID=113994&SecID=33

Looks like the last one before that was three years ago...

[AggieDave 6]

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Example: Influenza effects thousands of children per year. Therefore, educating parents on how to prevent contraction of the flu is needed and can begin immediately. -However, that doesn't mean we should give up on a cure for Autism because we won't realize the CURE (<--clicky ) tomorrow.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Its not a valid example, its not a valid example for the situations shown. Its an example sighted simply to pull on emotional strings. It envolves all the classic lines, sick children, sick without a cure, children who are disadvantaged. That line works on some folks, particularly those who have no convictions and are easily swayed by emotional responses, but not those who actually have some backbone in what they believe in.

So I say NI to you.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."