Old Gear: Are you crazy I wouldn't jump that @#$@#$

[hackish 8]

This is the response I get from a lot of people when I speak of jumping some older gear. I understand how capewells work and I do recognize that it's quite possible to catch lines in them from your reserve (belly mount).

I wonder from the old-timers how dangerous they really feel the old gear is given a proper briefing and familiarity with the old EPs? It seems to me that the stuff worked properly 40 years ago and still has a very reasonable chance of working today. In fact it seems to me that a PC Mk2 probably has as good or better chance of working than today's squares.

Opinions?

-Michael

[SuperGirl 0]

it'll probably work great, but you might not appreciate the landing...

it might be wise to keep that kind of stuff for water jumps only

(then again, given my jump numbers, I don't really know what I'm talking about )

[longtall 0]

Mike; Every year we at Skydive New Mexico go to one of the lakes here in NM and make water jumps into the lake with the old rounds and some old squares (I even got to jump a delta 2 parawing into the lake) . The "water boogie was written up in Skydiving magazine.

" 90 right, five miles then cut."---Pukin Buzzards

[howardwhite 6]

This would better be posted in History and Trivia, where people who actually jump this stuff are more likely to see it. That said....
-It is not enough to "understand how Capewells work." You should have a hanging harness set up for practice -- lots of practice -- not just on how to release your main but also how to deploy a belly reserve;
-The reserve will be a round canopy. It should go without saying that it is probably old. Make sure it's inspected and packed by a rigger who is at least as old as the canopy;
-Same for finding a harness and container(s). And for packing the main;
-Practice your PLFs.
There are a number of people around here who have collections of well-maintained old gear and jump it regularly. (I'm not one of them.) It's not, as you rightly suggest, inherently dangerous.

HW

[stratostar 5]

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but you might not appreciate the landing...

You only being part of the misinformation of the many who think this, I guess your only repeating what you've been told and not what you know as fact from your own use and or landing of such canopies. Maybe you could have the guts one day to try it out for yourself a see first hand, but like most I doubt you will.

Oh and Hackish..........MK 2's suck and land like shit, better make sure your in the peas dude, if your going to hang that old shit out get you a MK 1 or Jumbo PC.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[NickDG 23]

On the smaller rounds like the Piglets and Starlites we learned to crank hard turns at the last moment (true hook turns) and mostly stood them up.

And when you cutaway with Capewells you then covered them up with your non-reserve arm and hand before deploying the reserve.

But originally all the releases designed to that point, including Capewells, weren' meant to be used in the air. You were supposed to keep your bad round main and hand deploy your reserve like military jumpers did. And in this case "hand deploy" meant exactly that, you'd actually fed the entire reserve into the wind by hand. It was skydivers who came up with putting spring loaded PCs on the reserves and actually cutting away in the air.

And if you think there is/was big controversy nowadays over AADs and RSLs you should have been around when half the sport was in the cutaway camp and the other was in the hand deploy camp. And those arguments sometimes became heated, but not having the internet in those days, we had to actually duke it out in the peas or behind the hangar . . .

NickD

[Andy9o8 2]

Like some of the extremely old and withered farts in the above posts, I was trained on and used to jump the old mil-surp gear with shot-&-a-half capewells & cheapo rounds. We all (well, most of us) lived, and it wasn't (well, usually wasn't) just dumb luck. Today's gear is safer, but that doesn't mean that the old gear is dangerous, even comparatively so. Just train thoroughly and use it carefully, and you'll be fine. Unless you're not. Cuz shit happens. That is all.

[Andy9o8 2]

...and we used to walk 15 miles in the snow to get to the DZ. Uphill both ways! And we were thankful!

[kkeenan 14]

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And when you cutaway with Capewells you then covered them up with your non-reserve arm and hand before deploying the reserve.

On one of my early cutaways, I had the poor judgement to neglect this step. I ended up with the apex of the round reserve (the apex consisted of a shitload of lines which come together in a wad) hung up on a Capewell cover. I spent a bit of time in freefall, towing the reserve pilot chute, until I saw and cleared it. That's a memory that is very clear after 30+ years. Needless to say, I was very happy to see the 3-Ring system come along.

Heed the advice about the training and the suspended harness.

Kevin K.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[councilman24 37]

First, who's spotting? Most of the newbies don't have a clue. Even if they are jumping Cessnas and actually are taught spotting it still isn't of the importance it was when we were learning on and owned rounds. We really did consider watch the WDI, calculate an 'opening' point, and from there determine an exit point taking into account the aircraft throw and ff drift, and then maybe a 'climbout' point taking into account the speed of the jumpers on the load.

I jumped a Phantom 28 in 2005 and put it in the 30' pea gravel from 5000' up and 5000' out. But I spotted!

Area accuracy for rounds isn't all that tough if you are TAUGHT how to do it. I never landed outside the 'landing area' during my student jumps or subsequent round jumps unless it was a truely bad spot. But, set up for landing begins at opening (and of course before with the spot).

There are some types of gear I'd stay away from. Any kind of Capewell with the metal cover still on it. R-3 type releases, still using the Capewell load supporting hardware are so much better and an easy retrofit. Hell, I just bought a new in package set of R-3's. .... Old SST's, because they tried to kill me. Any kind of throw out hand deploy PC that doesn't use a curved pin, most kinds of pull outs, hmmm, early original Ravens with or without the bikini slider as a reserve, non steerable reserves, ...... the list goes on.

There are a lot of things we identified as killing people and changed. There are some things that just aren't worth the risk any more.

per Poynter's a 24' flat T-10 troop reserve had a malfunction rate of 17%. Had uncoverend modifications and still no diaper and maybe your up to 25%? Not worth it.

I have a lot of older gear I'd jump if I didn't weight 50lbs more than I did then. A busted up ankle let me gain too much weight 20 years ago and still haven't lost it. Strong LoPo's, navy conicals, etc. sure. Most of the mains, (okay not ropes and rings) sure if your light enough. A lot of the rigs. Maybe not the military surplus NB's.

And I routinely stood up Comp PC and 35' T 10 landings. At 160lbs.

Still remember, the reserve is your last chance to LIVE! What is that one nostalga jump worth? (The Phantom 28 was in my everyday rig, a Reflex.)

You can get away with almost any of the old gear once. But some of the stuff just isn't worth the risk.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[BIGUN 1,311]

Repeating myself: You better find the oldest, crustiest, hardcore, live-on the DZ in a an old leaky RV, perhaps ex-airborne, back-in-the-day round jumper and learn how to do real PLFs on all sides from about a 6-8 foot platform... not that twice bunny hop land on the pussy pad golf clap shit they teach today.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[ryoder 1,590]

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Old SST's, because they tried to kill me.

Did you get bit by the reserve ripcord housing issue?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[councilman24 37]

Nope.

My reserve PC didn't want to leave. for 1400'.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[ryoder 1,590]

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Nope.

My reserve PC didn't want to leave. for 1400'.

I recall an issue where if the pin spacing didn't perfectly match the grommet spacing, the pins would not release simultaneously, that the result could be the PC lying on it's side on the container, with one loop still in the container. I saw it when opening my own SST on the packing table. Do you think this is what happened?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[councilman24 37]

Ripcord was pulled to arms length, pulled out of the housing and both pins looked at, and thrown away to make sure I'd pulled it. All while hurtling to earth.

But a loop did get hung up, the cap rotated and the spring expanded down my back (as seen from above). Rolling over didn't blow it off. Don't what got it to leave... at 300'.

This was one of the U.S. team prototype rigs from 1974 or 75.

One of the first struggle struggle thumps.

Lots (most?) of two pins have one pin going slightly before the other. Usually not a problem.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[ryoder 1,590]

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But a loop did get hung up, the cap rotated and the spring expanded down my back (as seen from above).

That is exactly what I saw on the packing table. Some experimentation indicated the slower the pull, the more likely it was to happen. So I made a mental note to pull as hard as possible if I ever needed it.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[councilman24 37]

I did. Didn't help.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[dragon2 2]

You should come over here, oktober 11th we have a vintage weekend with everything from rounds to triangles to squares to the funny shapes. Some of these canopies can be seen in the air here during slow low-wind days as they are test-jumped (and fun-jumped). Also we have had lots of round SL jumps this year, with more students on the way, they jump capewells (but are not taught to operate them).

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[livendive 8]

Quote

Repeating myself: You better find the oldest, crustiest, hardcore, live-on the DZ in a an old leaky RV, perhaps ex-airborne, back-in-the-day round jumper and learn how to do real PLFs on all sides from about a 6-8 foot platform... not that twice bunny hop land on the pussy pad golf clap shit they teach today.

Having landed an old 26' LoPo with a suspended weight of around 225-230 lbs on my 33rd jump, I whole-heartedly agree. Under my reserve, watching my altimeter rapidly tick off the altitude, I figured I must have some sort of reserve mal, but the only round mal I knew of was a Mae West, and I didn't have that, so I had nothing to do but try and steer myself away from a car that was rapidly coming up and prepare for the best PLF I could pull off. My FJC instructor had taught me PLFs off a picnic table. I missed the car by about 5' and decided that for realism sake, my FJC instructor should have made me jump off the peak of the jumpshack's roof! Luckily I was young and just a little bruised up from the deal.

I still make my FJC students do PLFs off a truck tailgate or a 4-wheeler, in all four directions, with no pussy pads or peas underneath them (admittedly it's only maybe 3'-4', not 6'-8'). I've seen people teach PLFs to students who just have them crumple from a standing position on a pad, and I don't really understand the point. A couple weeks ago I had a FJC and had several volunteers to do the PLFs for me, as I was fighting off a hip flexor issue. I was considering jumping, and my rule has always been that if a student can't do PLFs the way I demand, they can't jump, so I might as well hold myself to the same standard. 10 PLFs off the 4-wheeler later (having to repeatedly demonstrate the backwards PLF), I pronounced myself fit to jump.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[BIGUN 1,311]

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I still make my FJC students do PLFs off a truck tailgate

Same here!! We gots lotsa pick-em-ups here in Oklahoma

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[hackish 8]

As for the rig itself it belongs to a rigger who has been rigging since the year I was born. It's a jumbo PC with a baby cobra reserve. I am not type rated to pack a round but he is so we'll pack it together.

Despite the fact I've stood up every landing so far this year I'll be forcing myself to PLF everything I can as practice. Also considering buying a roll of WDI material so I can practice that too.

Last year crazy Larry at my DZ decided to jump an old PC but we rigged it up in a tandem rig so he had a 3 ring and a square reserve in case he decided to chop it. While this isn't out of the question for me I do feel that if the complete antique gear was safe enough for them it's probably safe enough for me.

BTW I'll definitely stay away from wind blast handles and the like. I wish I was closer to Jim Wilson or something but unfortunately there are only a small handful of members who are old enough to have jumped the old gear let alone be able to give instruction on it.

-Michael

[Beatnik 2]

I might be in your neck of the woods shortly on a trip and next year I should be a lot closer. If I can make it out to your dz even for a short while I will let you know. I am bringing a couple of sets of gear with me, so if nothing else I can put on a show.

[livendive 8]

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I am not type rated to pack a round but he is so we'll pack it together.

There's a round type rating?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Beatnik 2]

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There's a round type rating?

The CSPA rigger system is quite different than the FAA system. Each has there perks sort of. That is why I am going for FAA as well when I get a chance. The rating system with CSPA works like this. There are two ratings round and ramair. Then there are endorsements under those two ratings for the type of container and deployment. It is a little more complicated but it seems to work. Some of the endorsements can be hard to get if you don't have the gear around.

[councilman24 37]

Pussies!

We made them jump off the hood of the truck.... and then the roof. Backwards onto dry sod!

Students were brused after their first jump but from the training.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE