Sabre 2 @ WL 1.9?

[Stefan1983 0]

Hi!

Is somebody here flying an overloaded Sabre 2?
I can get a decent deal on a 107....
I like to know how it performs at a wingload of aprox. 1.9.

I will demo it when the wheater is going to be better but maybe you can answer my questions.

I now that it isn´t the recommended WL of PD but do you think it is too high for a Sabre 2?

need it for my backup rig...my primary chute is an x-fire2 119. What do you think about the swoop performance of the 107 sabre2 in comparsion to the x-fire2 ?

thx

[likestojump 3]

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Hi!

Is somebody here flying an overloaded Sabre 2?
I can get a decent deal on a 107....
I like to know how it performs at a wingload of aprox. 1.9.

I will demo it when the wheater is going to be better but maybe you can answer my questions.

I now that it isn´t the recommended WL of PD but do you think it is too high for a Sabre 2?

need it for my backup rig...my primary chute is an x-fire2 119. What do you think about the swoop performance of the 107 sabre2 in comparsion to the x-fire2 ?

thx

my experience with a Sabre2-107 loaded just a hair over 1.9 has been that it flies ok, but falls out of a sky quite fast. I did not enjoy it.

[ripcord4 0]

Quote

Hi!

Is somebody here flying an overloaded Sabre 2?
I can get a decent deal on a 107....
I like to know how it performs at a wingload of aprox. 1.9.

I will demo it when the wheater is going to be better but maybe you can answer my questions.

I now that it isn´t the recommended WL of PD but do you think it is too high for a Sabre 2?

need it for my backup rig...my primary chute is an x-fire2 119. What do you think about the swoop performance of the 107 sabre2 in comparsion to the x-fire2 ?

thx

We'll be reading about you in the Incidents column in the "Parachutist" magazine.

[Stefan1983 0]

oh thank you for this helpful commend......

[BMFin 0]

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We'll be reading about you in the Incidents column in the "Parachutist" magazine.

Sometimes I wish there was a way to filter away these "less constructive" replys

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

I am confused by your question. The manufacturer does NOT reccomend jumping the canopy at that loading...yet you are looking for reassuance from strangers on the internet? The manufacturer puts a lot of time/effort/jumps into making those recommendations... perhaps heeding them would be wise.

Here is a relevant quote from the PD "Sabre2 Flight Characteristics" document:

Aggressive Approaches (High-Speed Approaches): As we mentioned above, the Sabre2 loses slightly more altitude in a turn than the original Sabre and the Spectre. By comparison, the PD Stiletto pulls out of a dive relatively quickly. As with most canopies, smaller sizes dive more in turns than larger ones.

The entire document can be found at:
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Sabre2-Flight.pdf

Is the cost savings in buying this "decent deal" canopy worth the risk of the economic cost of lost work and medical care following a crash? How about the pain and suffering?

You are proposing exceeding the manufacturer's recommendations by almost 20%!

I wish you well.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[Fab 0]

Sweetspot for a sbre2 is around 1.5 I think. 1.9 seems a little high and I would rather choose a crossfire2 or katana at that wingload.

If you already jump a crossfire2...why go back to a sabre2?

_______________________________________

[AggieDave 6]

There are some people that like a Sabre2 loaded that high. I did not think they performed all that well loaded that high. I felt like the performance tapered off pretty hard after 1.7. A Katana loaded at 1.9, though, is a BEAST, serious performance.

I can't attest as to if you're ready for a 100sq ft canopy loaded at 1.9 or not, so good luck what ever you choose.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[in2jumping 0]

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We'll be reading about you in the Incidents column in the "Parachutist" magazine.

Sometimes I wish there was a way to filter away these "less constructive" replys

"In sport: 47 years"

I think he has earned the right to make these replys.

[Bolas 5]

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We'll be reading about you in the Incidents column in the "Parachutist" magazine.

Sometimes I wish there was a way to filter away these "less constructive" replys

If he's going to load his canopy .2 beyond generally accepted limits for the number of the jumps the OP reports to have and exceed the maunfacturers max recommended wing loading...

I'll agree there are other ways to say it, but it still needed to be said and in general isn't listened to anyways.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Stefan1983 0]

@bolas
well... if your profile is correct you are jumping a sabre 2 @1.7 with 1000 Jumps in 8 years, which is an average of only 125 jumps/year
Do you really think you are more current than me? I started jumping in april 2007 and did aprox. 450 jumps in the last 12 months/ nearly 750 since 2007
But i´m not surprised that this thread is going into a "experience-non experierence discussion"...

Why not getting a second crossfire or katana? a VERY good deal on a sabre 2 and it´s only for my backup rig,

I´m interessted in the following:
what kind of performance the sabre 2 will loose beyond a WL of about 1.7? Flare? surf? i´m sure that the chute will still keep flying but what exactly will suck at a higher wingload?

thanks to the guys who could make contructive posts..

[davelepka 4]

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if your profile is correct you are jumping a sabre 2 @1.7 with 1000 Jumps in 8 years, which is an average of only 125 jumps/year
Do you really think you are more current than me? I started jumping in april 2007 and did aprox. 450 jumps in the last 12 months/ nearly 750 since 2007

Well, the fact remains that he does indeed have 30% more jumps than you, and four times the number of years in the sport.

It is a mathmatical fact that he has more time and experince in the sport than you do. In terms of canopy control, those factors outweigh you higher number of jumps per year in recent years.

More jumps per year indicates a greater number of jumps per jumping day. All this does is point to you making many jumps in one day, at the same DZ, with the same weather and landing pattern for the whole day.

Your skills would be better honed with more time in the sport, exposing you to a greater number of days (and conditions) as you progress.

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a VERY good deal on a sabre 2 and it´s only for my backup rig,

On this point, it's only a good deal if the canopy is a good fit for you. I know where there's a 79 Velo that hasn't been jumped in over a year, and I'm sure I could get it for a good price, however, that would put me at a WL of 2.6 which is too high for what I'm doing, therefore it is not a good deal.

Additionally, having the smaller, overloaded canopy in the rig that you will jump less is a big mistake. Backup rigs should have either the exact same canopies, or larger.

Having the same canopies is really the best way. This way both rigs are equal, and you truely have a backup rig. If they are different, you will pick a favorite and and up finding ways to jump that one instead of the backup, making the backup useless.

If you cannot match the canopies, opt for a larger canopy in your backup rig. It's the one you will jump less, and the extra square feet will make up for your lack of time under that canopy. Not to mention that backup rigs only come out when you're really jumping hard, and when you're pushing yourself to make every load, the last thing you need is an extra challenge from a smaller, overloaded canopy.

I'll make one last point - Stefan1983, I'm guessing your name is Stefan, easy enough. If 1983 happens to be your date of birth, you're the poster child for going in under a good canopy.

You're right in the age range that qualifies as young, dumb, and full of cum, and that's not a good thing. You have a very short time in the sport, and seem to be on a tear to have and do everything right now, no waiting. This is a mistake.

The one guy who posted had 40-some years in the sport. He started jumping before your parents where out of high school. Take that into account when you pass on the 'great deal' and get something that fits your needs a little better.

[Bolas 5]

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@bolas
well... if your profile is correct you are jumping a sabre 2 @1.7 with 1000 Jumps in 8 years, which is an average of only 125 jumps/year
Do you really think you are more current than me? I started jumping in april 2007 and did aprox. 450 jumps in the last 12 months/ nearly 750 since 2007
But i´m not surprised that this thread is going into a "experience-non experierence discussion"...

Why not getting a second crossfire or katana? a VERY good deal on a sabre 2 and it´s only for my backup rig,

I´m interessted in the following:
what kind of performance the sabre 2 will loose beyond a WL of about 1.7? Flare? surf? i´m sure that the chute will still keep flying but what exactly will suck at a higher wingload?

thanks to the guys who could make contructive posts..

I aplogize as my info is not current.

I'm currently jumping 2 150's (Sabre and Stiletto as after my last chop I lost my 135)

My jump numbers are probably also closer to 1100 as well as I haven't dowloaded my audible in a bit.

That being said, when they calculate these sort of max recommendations they take guys like you (super current, high #'s a year, possibly many hop n pops) much more into account than they do me.

So if your jump #'s are accurate, you'd be .2 over the recommended maximum wingloading for your jump #'s.

Here's the really scary one: You're about .3 over the maximum wingloading for that size canopy. This is regardless of jump #'s currency, etc. This also means that either PD test jumped it at this wing loading and didn't find the flight characteristics acceptable or didn't bother testing that high. More likely the first scenario though.

This makes you a test pilot.

It's obviously your decision. Just making sure you fully understand and accept the much greater risks you're taking by flying this configuration which other have already said is not conducive to good swoops or maybe even technique. If you have a significant other, family, and/or kids then additionally definitely understand how the additional risks you are taking effect them.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billeisele 130]

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We'll be reading about you in the Incidents column in the "Parachutist" magazine.

Sometimes I wish there was a way to filter away these "less constructive" replys

some of us get tired of giving the "real" answers only to have them ignored, so we just give these short replies hoping that it might wake someone up, if not then the end result could very well be what we posted, and my jump numbers and other data are correct if you want to analyze my competency to post here

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[Chris_K 0]

[reply
I´m interessted in the following:
what kind of performance the sabre 2 will loose beyond a WL of about 1.7? Flare? surf? i´m sure that the chute will still keep flying but what exactly will suck at a higher wingload?

thanks to the guys who could make contructive posts..

[pchapman 279]

Sorry Chris, I won't buy that aerodynamic explanation. I'd say the effect of turbulence is less for the same jumper flying a smaller canopy of the same type, faster. I don't see a big adverse relationship between ram air pressure and surface pressures or lines loading each square foot of canopy, when it comes to increasing the loading on the canopy.

Unmanned ram airs can fly at 10:1, Mr Bills can fly at twice the recommended loading, and so on. If the stall point happens to be a little higher than down at one's hips, or the recovery arc is a little longer, that in itself isn't a problem.

Now if one is arguing that a trickier to land parachute, one that approaches the ground faster and has less time in the flare window, is going to add risk if one is getting bounced around by turbulence, sure. There's just less margin to get levelled out and slowed down, which gets even trickier in less than idea conditions. But I don't see that that relates specifically to being outside the recommended weight range.

I'm not so concerned aerodynamically with a Sabre 2 at 1.9. A guy we both know, jumped an original Sabre 107 at 1.95 when he had 360-500 jumps and was OK with it, although he didn't exactly surf much at all, and that loading was also well out of the published flight envelope. Not saying it was smart, but it was doable.

I'd still not recommend a Sabre 2 at 1.9 for a backup rig with higher wing loading than the main rig. But me saying "I'm not sure that's a good idea" still doesn't answer the original question of just how a Sabre 2 flies at 1.9.

[DBCOOPER 5]

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"I'm not sure that's a good idea" still doesn't answer the original question of just how a Sabre 2 flies at 1.9.

Guess there aren't that many that have tried it....

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[sagan 0]

Yes flies fine -- we have an LO here with over 2000+ jumps with that configuration. He seems to be fine on long spots, etc but has close to 8K total jumps, so may have more tolerance for finicky situations.

-Patrick

[jcd11235 0]

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Why not getting a second crossfire or katana? a VERY good deal on a sabre 2 and it´s only for my backup rig,

None of which makes it a good canopy choice for you to jump.

If you can get such a good deal on the Sabre2, buy it, resell it for a profit, and use the money to buy something better suited for your relatively low level of experience.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rhys 0]

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Well, the fact remains that he does indeed have 30% more jumps than you, and four times the number of years in the sport.

I will go with currency over time in the sport when we are talking 1000 jumps.

Older jumpers have older mentalities when it comes to canopy piloting. Though they will have witnessed more mistakes, we all know the consequence of making a mistakes and some guys never learn, and others are onto it from the word go.

Anyone that can do 1000 jumps in less than 2 years has a true passion for the sport and will no doubt be aware of the repercussions of a steep learning curve. The risks would have been pointed out to them by thier peers numerous times (one would hope).

I have a friend that has been jumping for about 14 months and now has 1100 jumps, he now has a vx 94.

He makes nice, safe, fun and fast landing approaches, we are only allowed to do 90 degree turns here in Lodi. but we still start our turns at or around 500ft. if we have a decent wingload.

In my second rig I have my wifes crossfire2 89, and in my primary rig I have my JVX86.

I can concur that overloaded non crossbraced canopies do not fly that well, though it lands and flares safely enough, it does not glide half as much as a JVX on a similar WL.

My suggestion to the OP is to get the Sabre, don't jump it (much) and sell it at a profit to buy a crossfire. that way you end up with a great canopy that will not snap your heart off at the aorta, and will handle the wingloading you give it.

Once your approaches are smooth as butter and consistant...

...get a JVX they are now $2500 custom new!


http://www.nzaerosports.com/daedalusJVX.php

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[champu 1]

I think going back and forth between an over-loaded sabre-2 and a comfortably loaded xfire-2 is a bad idea. Either will fly, but everyone picks up and sloughs off bad habits as they learn and a successful correction on one of those canopies after a minor mistake might stall the other and ruin your weekend. I think those two canopies/wingloadings will fly similarly enough in just the wrong ways to make a mistake likely.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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"In sport: 47 years"

I think he has earned the right to make these replys. Wink

Sure, even the right to quit if he is burnt out.

[BMFin 0]

I think skymonkeyone has a sabre 97 loaded quite heavy. IIRC he has been giving positive feedback here on DZ.com

I wonder why is it that every time these threads turn into experience level debate how the "old timers" tell the newbies over internet how they are not ready for canopyX. By looking at someones jump numbers you dont know how competent he is to fly canopyX. Hell I know people with 600 jumps competing at the CP world champs, and I know people with 5000+ jumps and they still cant handle basic entry level canopy loaded less than 1.4