pchapman 279 #1 August 12, 2009 From another thread, by d123, but deserving a thread of its own: Quote Off topic but speaking of snag hazards and Cessna, a friend of mine posted this movie on his facebook page that showed me a bad side of RSL/SKYHook + Cessnas combo that I've never seen before: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bv_NqiT7pM While snagging things on doorways is not new, it looks like the video deals with snag point that is becoming more common. The video shows shots from the jumper with the problem and another jumper on the plane. It seems to show an exit from a small Cessna with a snaggable door handle or latch. The jumper, wearing a Vector III, catches the upper part of his pack on the handle, pulling out the Skyhook RSL, popping the reserve. The reserve deploys over the tail, might be shredded, jumper and reserve fall away, jumper fights uselessly with the tiny spinning ball of garbage that is his reserve, eventually deploys his main, it clears the garbage, he doesn't die. Compared to the early 90s, these days jumpers have gotten used to much better pin protection, and I bet are less likely to expect to snag things on the back of their pack. I only know what I saw on the video but it seems like the handle caught the RSL line where it goes from under the riser covers to under the reserve pin cover flap. The Skyhook RSL is sometimes a bit visible in that area on rigs. RSL on some rigs are not exposed at all on the back due to the flap design. Whether it is a plain RSL on a Vector II or a Skyhook on a Vector III, the RSL is a little more exposed on those designs. So it isn't a new hazard but one that's becoming more prominent, given the increased use of Skyhooks after a time where RSL's were not so popular. Having a really scary video always helps drive a point home better! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #2 August 12, 2009 Holy hell that was frightening. Once the barber pole got all the way down the reserve risers, there was nothing left to do but throw out the main PC and hope for the best. I'm not 100% sure, but I think the main slider pulled the ball of shit reserve right down into the guys lap. He got a good canopy and contained the shit ball all at once. Just a drop of good luck in an otherwise terrible situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
c10edges 0 #3 August 12, 2009 That is no the scariest video I have ever seen. Way to survive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #4 August 12, 2009 you must always always be aware of snag points as a jumper, or fellow jumper, and as a dzo to brief new jumpers on stuff like seen in this video. It is the small stuff that matters. The small things that no one would ever think they could snag their gear on. I have about 350 jumps out of 182's and was always taught to make darn sure that the door was secure up top and not trying to come back down on you. I also noticed he somewhat jammed himself in between the strut and the door almost. That was totally unnecessary, and could be part of the problem. Once again those snag points will screw you. Glad to see he came threw alright.don't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #5 August 12, 2009 Ok, on the same topic - am I a fool for thinking - "hook knife the that vine of lines and then deploy your main" I would be scared shitless deploying my main into that ball of shit. I cannot imagine that a streamer consisting of both your main and reserve can be pleasant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sangi 0 #6 August 12, 2009 QuoteOk, on the same topic - am I a fool for thinking - "hook knife the that vine of lines and then deploy your main" I would be scared shitless deploying my main into that ball of shit. I cannot imagine that a streamer consisting of both your main and reserve can be pleasant. Ok, I'm most likely gonna get something witty from you pointing what a dumbass I am but anyway.. How in hell can you cut the lines when they are all twisted and curled up in "one" thick tight line with a hook knife, while at the same having all this vibration and twisting and moving and shit...?"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #7 August 12, 2009 Quote Ok, on the same topic - am I a fool for thinking - "hook knife the that vine of lines and then deploy your main" I would be scared shitless deploying my main into that ball of shit. I cannot imagine that a streamer consisting of both your main and reserve can be pleasant. Hell no your not the only one! The whole video i was thinking cut the damn line's/ or risers...... i have 2-3 hook knive on me at all times. Im not saying he didnt do the right thing cause he lived, but i think i would have been cutting some shit up! I trust my main enough to get rid of that ball of shit!Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #8 August 12, 2009 -am I the only one who thinks that RSL + video is not a good idea ? -am I the only one who thinks that 3/4 of the jumpers 1st reflex would have been to cutaway ?scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #9 August 12, 2009 Quote -am I the only one who thinks that RSL + video is not a good idea ? -am I the only one who thinks that 3/4 of the jumpers 1st reflex would have been to cutaway ? now that thought is REALLY scary in that scenario.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #10 August 12, 2009 Quote -am I the only one who thinks that 3/4 of the jumpers 1st reflex would have been to cutaway ? Which is why I don't like teaching one emergency procedure for all malfunctions. Back when Raven's came out and you could have a custom color reserve I knew a couple of people that got matching mains and reserves. In this situation they would have had a harder time telling which was out. Most of us recognized the issue and didn't think it was a good idea.As said people have been snagging things on cessna doors for ever. But there are door latches that minimize the risk. It was hard to see this one but looked like it might have been a horizontal thumb latch. And a snag waiting to happen.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #11 August 12, 2009 Quote Back when Raven's came out and you could have a custom color reserve I knew a couple of people that got matching mains and reserves. Yeah, but that was because they could switch out the main and reserve when the main started to have bad landings and no one would know the difference!!Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #12 August 12, 2009 Alright Peter, I'll bite, but I'm gonna take another angle on this. Firstly, that video was pretty scary, and I could only ever hope for the same turnout if it ever happened to me. Aside from what/how it happened, I'm more interested in knowing about the reserve deployment. Why would, or what might cause a reserve to deploy in such a manner given the fact that as far as I can see....it had a clean deployment. It didn't snag on anything, it didn't hit the tail, jumper was essentially in a belly to earth configuration (relative wind)... Anyone else ponder that? I think that's the even scarier part...Imagine if that sequence of events happened in the opposite order...Main, cutaway, pooched reserve...real shitty day. Note: I did watch this on my iPhone, so I may not have caught all the detail."When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thedude325 0 #13 August 12, 2009 QuoteAlright Peter, I'll bite, but I'm gonna take another angle on this. Firstly, that video was pretty scary, and I could only ever hope for the same turnout if it ever happened to me. Aside from what/how it happened, I'm more interested in knowing about the reserve deployment. Why would, or what might cause a reserve to deploy in such a manner given the fact that as far as I can see....it had a clean deployment. It didn't snag on anything, it didn't hit the tail, jumper was essentially in a belly to earth configuration (relative wind)... Anyone else ponder that? I think that's the even scarier part...Imagine if that sequence of events happened in the opposite order...Main, cutaway, pooched reserve...real shitty day. Note: I did watch this on my iPhone, so I may not have caught all the detail. The plane is causing all kinds of turbulence. Notice it starts spinning at one point. This is from the vortices. check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Airplane_vortex_edit.jpg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #14 August 12, 2009 Was it really a Skyhook? Had it been a Skyhook, pulling the RSL lanyard would ordinarily have disconnected one side of the main canopy via the Collins lanyard, and his attempt to deploy his main would have failed. If it was really a Skyhook, and the RSL got pulled just far enough to deploy the reserve but not activate the Collins lanyard, that guy may just be the luckiest guy in all of skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #15 August 12, 2009 Fair enough, I'll give you that as a probable cause. On the other hand...for a reserve to basically come out of the bag and instantly be a mess without first nearly deploying, is sort of odd. I've seen a fair number of "in door" deployments on video and never once saw something like this, even with main deployments. Just seems odd to me..."When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #16 August 12, 2009 Quoteit didn't hit the tail It did hit the tail, bent it in fact. It was a Skyhook, but he only snagged the spectra line and pulled the pin. He was lucky he didn't cutaway his non-rsl side riser (left). The door handle has been replaced with one that is much less likely to snag anything. I was recently coaching a friend of this guy in the tunnel and he showed me this video last week. It is from South America. Derek V Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #17 August 12, 2009 That was flat out some scary shit! I can not say for certain what I would have done but thinking on it now I would have tried to cut the lines with a hook knife to get it clear..... that was my first reaction when watching. Also..... the fact that it did not activate the Collins Lanyard.... Bill you are right..... one lucky jumper!Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 3 #18 August 12, 2009 Man you are so right! If it was a skyhook he would be dead!!!!!! edit to add: or verry lucky as other pointed out that it was a skyhook!Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #19 August 12, 2009 QuoteAlso..... the fact that it did not activate the Collins Lanyard.... Bill you are right..... one lucky jumper! The way that the red cord from the RSL lanyard attaches to the hook on the bridle, it is supposed to be able to let the reserve deploy without pulling the Collins Lanyard. UPT makes a big deal about how if pulling from the reserve pilot chute end of the bridle, the loop should come off the hook. That's why the only thing holding it is a single loop of seal thread, so it can break without pulling the Collins Lanyard. Not saying that this jumpers wasn't extremely lucky. Just saying that this is the way the system is supposed to work. And I'm surely glad that it did. All in all, it makes me wonder why we put the seal thread on at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #20 August 12, 2009 QuoteI would have tried to cut the lines with a hook knife to get it clear..... ! I would cut RISERS (close to my shoulders), not lines. I would not want two feet of risers flapping above me when deploying my main... Also, the cheapo orange plastic knive that most people have would probably be useles (see attachment). Get TWO METAL knives (in case you drop one, especially when wearing the gloves like this guy)! About the orange plastic knife: It was designed for fishermen, NOT skydiverers: http://www.seattlemarine.net/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=8837&idcategory=0 ---------------------------------------- "The orange plasitic hook knife was banned in Sweden a couple of years ago due to poor quality." ---------------------------------------- "I took a plastic hook knife like yours, and tested it on a HMA line. We were 2 riggers and one skydiver that tried, and no one could cut the 1000lb HMA. It just got stuck in the upper corner and gut approx 40% of the line. One last skydiver managed to cut the line, but only due to repositioning the blade so it sliced more before getting stuck in the upper corner. I really hope that the manufactor would stop selling theese knives due to its poor quality. I'd say it hazardous since people are buying them without knowing that they "won't" work... get a proper metal hook knife, all of you!" ---------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icevideot 0 #21 August 12, 2009 I looked at the video again full screen and at :32 you can clearly see the reserve or reserve lines at least draped over the tail and the jumper falls past. He is lucky the reserve came off the tail at all. So is the pilot for that matter. It would be hard to see on a small screen between video quality and white reserve and white tail. I think he did a great job dealing with the aftermath even pulling in the reserve after deploying the main it looked like."... this ain't a Nerf world." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #22 August 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteI would have tried to cut the lines with a hook knife to get it clear..... ! I would cut RISERS (close to my shoulders), not lines. I would not want two feet of risers flapping above me when deploying my main... I doubt most of us would be thinking of the midlly annoying but quite safe 20" of reserve risers flapping in the wind - all while hurling towards earth at a fairly nerverecking speed. I have suggested cutting the lines because : 1) risers (especially Type 7 fronts) are fairly thick. 2) twisted up risers will need to be cut one by one, and while they are under tension, they are also no aligned straight for the blade to chop 3) the lines, twisted together (I used the word vine), may feel like a solid piece of rope, but just like any rope, you can easily cut it by cutting a fiber at a time (which is in fact how any rope is cut, just very fast ) 4) lastly, as that ball of shit was quite twisetd and had no rhyme or reason to it, it's quite possible that some of the risers had less tension than others, which will require a sequenced cutting of each one individually, which in turn requires too much thinking and/or guesswork, neither of which one can afford in a high speed malfunction. I do agree 105% with using a real metal hookknife. The plastic ones are great for cutting E thread on the ground, that's about it. just thinking out loud ... :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thedude325 0 #23 August 12, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLRkmUvmurE hook knife on a reserve riser. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Will_Evo 0 #24 August 12, 2009 That video gave me chills Zoo Crew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #25 August 12, 2009 > it is supposed to be able to let the reserve deploy without pulling the Collins Lanyard. The RSL, the Skyhook connection, the reserve pin and the Collins lanyard are all one piece. If you take your RSL and pull it all the way out, as hard as you can, you will pull the pin on the reserve and cut away one side of the main canopy. If, on the other hand, you pull the pin and then stop pulling, the pilot chute will (likely) disengage from the Skyhook device as it departs, leaving the main parachute attached. In this case, the jumper is very fortunate that he did not pull the RSL out far enough to activate the Collins lanyard, and that his friend helped clear the entanglement before he got yanked off. For a better view of what the RSL looks like on a Skyhook equipped rig check out the second page of this: http://unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Manual/09109(skyhPackIns).pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
