USPA GM pledge on landing patterns (was: Fatality - Brazil)

[Bill_K 0]

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>So, how do we fix this?

Here in the US, we successfully lobbied USPA to add a section in the group pledge that stated that any group member DZ would separate standard and nonstandard landing patterns. If there are USPA drop zones out there where the patterns are still mixed, demand that drop zone owners live up to the pledge they signed.

We have made this change at Perris and it's been a big help.

Bill,

Is this what your referring to?

Link

BK

[billvon 2,990]

That was part of it. The thing I was referring to specifically is a section of the Group Member pledge that all DZ's sign.

[Bill_K 0]

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That was part of it. The thing I was referring to specifically is a section of the Group Member pledge that all DZ's sign.

I have reasons for asking this, i.e. I want to print it out. Is that posted somewhere on line?

BK

PS. I am still looking for it...

[NWFlyer 2]

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That was part of it. The thing I was referring to specifically is a section of the Group Member pledge that all DZ's sign.

I have reasons for asking this, i.e. I want to print it out. Is that posted somewhere on line?

BK

PS. I am still looking for it...

The version of the Group Membership Manual that's currently posted on the USPA web site does not include the revised version of the pledge, however, USPA board meeting notes state that the pledge that Group Members signed this year (2008) would include the language. Until there's an updated version publicly available, though, it's hard to go to a DZO and ask "are you following this?"

http://www.uspa.org/publications/manuals.pdf/gmmanual.sec1.pdf (see page 3)

http://www.uspa.org/contact/BODminutes/BODMinutes0807.pdf (see page 14 - "Motion 21")

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Bill_K 0]

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That was part of it. The thing I was referring to specifically is a section of the Group Member pledge that all DZ's sign.

I have reasons for asking this, i.e. I want to print it out. Is that posted somewhere on line?

BK

PS. I am still looking for it...

The version of the Group Membership Manual that's currently posted on the USPA web site does not include the revised version of the pledge, however, USPA board meeting notes state that the pledge that Group Members signed this year (2008) would include the language. Until there's an updated version publicly available, though, it's hard to go to a DZO and ask "are you following this?"

http://www.uspa.org/publications/manuals.pdf/gmmanual.sec1.pdf (see page 3)

http://www.uspa.org/contact/BODminutes/BODMinutes0807.pdf (see page 14)

Thanks Krisanne, I was just coming back to amend my post. I found the second one from the meeting notes.

You answered directly what my next question was going to be. I do wonder even how many DZO's are even aware of this change. Bill's post was a complete surprise to me actually.

BK

[NWFlyer 2]

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You answered directly what my next question was going to be. I do wonder even how many DZO's are even aware of this change. Bill's post was a complete surprise to me actually.

BK

I fear we're getting a bit off topic of the incident itself and Bill may want to spin this off into a different thread. The application for group membership does include the new pledge langauge. However, I am not sure what process each dropzone goes through each year to renew its membership - this application seems to be only for initial membership. I am not certain how the new pledge language would be provided to existing Group Member dropzones.

http://www.uspa.org/publications/form.pdf/GMInitialApp0208.pdf

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[flyinhi79 0]

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That was part of it. The thing I was referring to specifically is a section of the Group Member pledge that all DZ's sign.

Maybe it would help if this was posted on the front page of USPA, written in every Parachutist mag, posted at every drop zone, talked about on Safety day, and posted where lift tickets are purchased.

I think it would also help if DZO were required to have landing paterns posted for each landing zone and fines were given to skydivers that do not follow them.

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

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I think it would also help if DZO were required to have landing paterns posted for each landing zone and fines were given to skydivers that do not follow them.

And exactly who is going to fine them. As far as I know the courts don't give DZ0s or S&TAs the discretion to issue tickets. Having rules for landing patterns is good but issuing fines isn't the answer.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[billvon 2,990]

>I think it would also help if DZO were required to have landing paterns
>posted for each landing zone and fines were given to skydivers that do not
>follow them.

Traditionally warnings/groundings seem to be more effective.

[chuckakers 425]

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That was part of it. The thing I was referring to specifically is a section of the Group Member pledge that all DZ's sign.

Maybe it would help if this was posted on the front page of USPA, written in every Parachutist mag, posted at every drop zone, talked about on Safety day, and posted where lift tickets are purchased.

I think it would also help if DZO were required to have landing paterns posted for each landing zone and fines were given to skydivers that do not follow them.

Be careful what you ask for. You might just get it.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[bodypilot90 0]

well I for one, am tired of seeing and hearing of friends kiiling and being killed under good canopies.

It seems that the only workable solution is 2 passes. I don't hate swoopers, I just sick of seeing them die. Wake up out there, bsbd

[winsor 236]

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well I for one, am tired of seeing and hearing of friends kiiling and being killed under good canopies.

It seems that the only workable solution is 2 passes. I don't hate swoopers, I just sick of seeing them die. Wake up out there, bsbd

If everyone is on the page when boarding the aircraft, it does not tend to be a problem under canopy.

"I expect to set up over the treeline, and shoot accuracy into the peas."

"No sweat; I will do an outside 270 and swoop the pond."

"We're going to open high and land on the far field."

And so forth.

I have been at DZs where people did radical setups and landings all day and stayed clear of the slowpokes. The key was that everyone knew what to expect and flew accordingly.

It's when you have people making it up as they go along that the most problems seem to arise.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[peek 21]

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If everyone is on the page when boarding the aircraft, it does not tend to be a problem under canopy....I have been at DZs where people did radical setups and landings all day and stayed clear of the slowpokes. The key was that everyone knew what to expect and flew accordingly.

Yes, it would be nice if they all talked wouldn't it? Now we need to figure out how to get them to do it. Boarding while the engines are running is not conducive to that, and neither is the time when half of them can't find their seatbelts. It would be nice if everyone got to the loading area early enough to discuss it when it is not noisy.

[NWFlyer 2]

So we have Perris as one Group Member dropzone that has been noted as having made a change since the Group Member Pledge has changed.

BillVon - can you be more specific about what the change was? Previous rule/new rule?

What other Group Member Dropzones have made changes that didn't already have something in place that met the terms of the pledge?

For the record, the new language in the pledge is as follows:

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Establish and disseminate landing procedures that will include separation of high-speed landings and normal landings.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[billvon 2,990]

>BillVon - can you be more specific about what the change was?
>Previous rule/new rule?

The previous rule was somewhat nebulous. People did 270's all the time, although there was a sign near the loading area defining a hook turn and saying anyone doing one would be grounded. The common knowledge was that they were OK as long as it wasn't a boogie or bigway event.

The new rule (posted around the DZ) is 90 degree landings only unless:

a) the pattern is completely clear AND
b) Dan has OKed you personally.

[jacketsdb23 49]

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a) the pattern is completely clear AND

Bill I have a problem with this. What is defined as completely clear? The problem with some of these canopy collisions is that the person *thinks* the pattern is clear because they simply don't see the other canopy. Only separated landing areas helps when pilots "miss" spotting each other.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[NWFlyer 2]

Okay, so Perris has changed since the GM pledge has changed.

Any others that have actually changed? Is this pledge getting any action? I've not been to that many GM DZs since the pledge changed and I think all of them have been status quo - either still not separating landing areas, or they have been separating landing areas for a long time so didn't need to make any changes to meet the pledge requirement. (The possible exception is Skydive Carolina, which did have a designated high-performance area at Skyfest, but I don't know the DZ well enough to remember what the setup was before).

[redlegphi 0]

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a) the pattern is completely clear AND

Bill I have a problem with this. What is defined as completely clear? The problem with some of these canopy collisions is that the person *thinks* the pattern is clear because they simply don't see the other canopy. Only separated landing areas helps when pilots "miss" spotting each other.

Completely agreed. Unless "completely cleared" means that the HP lander got out on a low pass by himself, this sounds alarm bells for me.