MasterOfMagic 0 #26 September 22, 2009 A friend of mine had a bag lock last summer because of tubestows. I can't place the movie here but he have it on his facebook account: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1288985544&v=info&viewas=1288985544#/jeanpaul.wolff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SimonBones 1 #27 September 22, 2009 Consider this: If rubber bands (As opposed to tube stoes) are supposed to be the almighty anti-baglock device, why don't most reserve systems use them to close the reserve bag? As far as I know, only Racer systems use rubber bands on their reserves. Most everyone else uses a bungee elastic rounded stoe. It's not a tube stoe, but it's not a rubber band and probably has a higher force required to break than a tube stoe. Both are rounded. Tube stoes and reserve bungee elastic stoes can roll as lines are moving through them. This makes for cleaner deployments and less line wear. Rubber bands flip over lines, and can lay flat against lines as they're pulled through (causing multiple baglocks), and have more of the "race track effect", here is a quote from NickDG on the subject: QuoteIn a stowed line group the lines in the center of the group would come out first while the lines actually touching the stow would momentarily stay put. And that created a lot of unnecessary line whipping. This leads to a less clean deployment of the lines, and more wear on them. As previously stated, none will completely eliminate the risk of a baglock. My opinion from experience is that there is a higher chance of baglock on rubber bands than on tube stoes (when used correctly). Tube stoes are geometrically more similar to what's being used on your reserve. It just makes more sense to have rounded stoes as opposed to flat ones.108 way head down world record!!! http://www.simonbones.com Hit me up on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
glgflyer 0 #28 September 22, 2009 But the report still doesn't say Claire was using tube stows. It simply says a stow band was too large, which also has me confused. I would think the exact opposite would be true. Seems to me if the band was too large the bag would open easier. I thought stow bands being too tight was the primary cause of a bag lock. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #29 September 22, 2009 QuoteBut the report still doesn't say Claire was using tube stows. It simply says a stow band was too large, which also has me confused. I would think the exact opposite would be true. Seems to me if the band was too large the bag would open easier. I thought stow bands being too tight was the primary cause of a bag lock. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. If you think there's no lesson for tube stows in a fatality where a stow band being too large formed a key link in the incident chain then there is something wrong with the way you are thinking about this problem. P.S. Sorry, I think I better understand your confusion. I don't think "too large" means loose in this case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SimonBones 1 #30 September 22, 2009 QuoteIf you think there's no lesson for tube stows in a fatality where a stow band being too large formed a key link in the incident chain then there is something wrong with the way you are thinking about this problem. I think you are trying to make a correlation where there isn't one. If someone packs their sport rig using tandem rubber bands they are bound to encounter problems eventually. Likewise if someone packs their sport rig with tandem sized tube stoes they're bound to run into problems eventually. The incident report indicates the problem had nothing to do with whether her stoes were rubber bands or tube stoes and more to do with using the right size. If your locking stoes are way too big (like tandem rubber bands or stoes) some of the canopy fabric can come out before getting to the locking stoes which can create a baglock by wedging the stoe and lines. I've seen this once. In fact, in that case, it appeared that if the person had been using tube stoes, the baglock wouldn't have happened. I don't have a picture of that particular one, but Videofly on here should still have it.108 way head down world record!!! http://www.simonbones.com Hit me up on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #31 September 22, 2009 QuoteQuoteIf you think there's no lesson for tube stows in a fatality where a stow band being too large formed a key link in the incident chain then there is something wrong with the way you are thinking about this problem. I think you are trying to make a correlation where there isn't one. If someone packs their sport rig using tandem rubber bands they are bound to encounter problems eventually. Likewise if someone packs their sport rig with tandem sized tube stoes they're bound to run into problems eventually. The incident report indicates the problem had nothing to do with whether her stoes were rubber bands or tube stoes and more to do with using the right size. If your locking stoes are way too big (like tandem rubber bands or stoes) some of the canopy fabric can come out before getting to the locking stoes which can create a baglock by wedging the stoe and lines. I've seen this once. In fact, in that case, it appeared that if the person had been using tube stoes, the baglock wouldn't have happened. I don't have a picture of that particular one, but Videofly on here should still have it. I agree, there's no direct correlation with this incident. I'm still persuaded by the bands tendency to break when you have a line trapped in a loop and human factors in packing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #32 September 22, 2009 To clarify, the rubber bands used on Vector and Sigma tandems - are double the WIDTH of MIL-SPEC rubber bands and are not supposed to be used on solo parachutes. Military Sigmas use TRIPLE width rubber bands that only an idiot would install on a solo parachute. Military tandem jumpers routinely carry 500 bundles and some have experimented with 1,000 pound bundles! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #33 September 22, 2009 Quote Quote Tube stows are expensive and may or may not break when needed. I make them for myself, they are cheap too. I can make them on proper size. Very (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
glgflyer 0 #34 September 22, 2009 Phoenixlpr, Where do you get the tubing to make the tube stows and what size is it (inside diameter and outside diameter)? I would like to try and make some of my own to try. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #35 September 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf you think there's no lesson for tube stows in a fatality where a stow band being too large formed a key link in the incident chain then there is something wrong with the way you are thinking about this problem. I think you are trying to make a correlation where there isn't one. If someone packs their sport rig using tandem rubber bands they are bound to encounter problems eventually. Likewise if someone packs their sport rig with tandem sized tube stoes they're bound to run into problems eventually. The incident report indicates the problem had nothing to do with whether her stoes were rubber bands or tube stoes and more to do with using the right size. If your locking stoes are way too big (like tandem rubber bands or stoes) some of the canopy fabric can come out before getting to the locking stoes which can create a baglock by wedging the stoe and lines. I've seen this once. In fact, in that case, it appeared that if the person had been using tube stoes, the baglock wouldn't have happened. I don't have a picture of that particular one, but Videofly on here should still have it. I agree, there's no direct correlation with this incident. I'm still persuaded by the bands tendency to break when you have a line trapped in a loop and human factors in packing. maybe you would like to withdraw your statement!?“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elias123 0 #36 September 23, 2009 I'll join :) I take number 3 if that's not taken"In a mad world, only the mad are sane" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #37 September 23, 2009 Ok, I check and let you know. BTW I have posted before you might find it if you search. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #38 September 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIf you think there's no lesson for tube stows in a fatality where a stow band being too large formed a key link in the incident chain then there is something wrong with the way you are thinking about this problem. I think you are trying to make a correlation where there isn't one. If someone packs their sport rig using tandem rubber bands they are bound to encounter problems eventually. Likewise if someone packs their sport rig with tandem sized tube stoes they're bound to run into problems eventually. The incident report indicates the problem had nothing to do with whether her stoes were rubber bands or tube stoes and more to do with using the right size. If your locking stoes are way too big (like tandem rubber bands or stoes) some of the canopy fabric can come out before getting to the locking stoes which can create a baglock by wedging the stoe and lines. I've seen this once. In fact, in that case, it appeared that if the person had been using tube stoes, the baglock wouldn't have happened. I don't have a picture of that particular one, but Videofly on here should still have it. I agree, there's no direct correlation with this incident. I'm still persuaded by the bands tendency to break when you have a line trapped in a loop and human factors in packing. maybe you would like to withdraw your statement!? No thanks, I don't want to add to or subtract from anything I've said there. You tried to bury the relevant portion of this incident by jumping to the final vague gear maintenence conclusion when the incident very clearly has relevance to the issue of choice of stows and can help inform a decision to go with stows that don't break in my opinion. There are also numerous bag locks directly attributed to tube stows on otherwise well maintained gear and you have never addressed lines trapped in the excess line loops, not double wrapping misses the point. Rubber bands break for a reason, or to word it more appropriately, they are used for a reason, and part of that reason is they break. They're not infallible but they are better than tube stows. There's a propensity for people to rationalize gear decisions with contrived arguments, I think this is happening in the 'debate' over tube stows. They are convenient, cool and less frustrating for some, but they have an unquantifiable added risk. It doesn't matter how much you want them to be safer or as safe as bands, they aren't and the evidence & risk is not swayed by your preference, only your decision is. Personally I'd quite like it if tube stows were as safe as bands, it's a shame they aren't. Pretending otherwise is just kidding yourself. This is not a new debate, I like the historical perspective this guy brings to the table: http://www.totalcontrol.com.au/services-select.asp?iServicesID=11 Skip to the last paragraph if you like, but read it and accept it. By all means jump whatever you like, but don't sell rationalizations that deny the added risk. Tube stows don't have to be as safe as bands and you can still jump them all day long if you like. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #39 September 23, 2009 i think in this thread alone we found at least three instances of rubber bands causing baglocks/cutaways.. the only conclusion is: choose the right size for your type of gear, be it tube stows or rubber bands!“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #40 September 23, 2009 Yea, what does that John Sherman guy know anyway. Just go with the convenience factor and selective anecdotes. Quote"Consider this; Parachute "system" designers develop components based upon the characteristics of the stow band. This is a fact. I know, as that is what I do for a living, and have been doing it for over 30 years. I strongly advise all parachutists to use only Mil Spec. Rubber Stow Bands. To use anything else can and will compromise your system." - John Sherman http://www.jumpshack.com/john.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #41 September 23, 2009 i rather like to listen to the 10'000 jumps guy with a background in mechanical engineering and experience in constructing containers and parachutes.. which happened to sell me those tube stoes! but anyway, you believe what you want, but leave me my beliefs; i wont interfere with your choices, so let me have the right to do my own..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #42 September 23, 2009 Quotei rather like to listen to the 10'000 jumps guy with a background in mechanical engineering and experience in constructing containers and parachutes.. which happened to sell me those tube stoes! but anyway, you believe what you want, but leave me my beliefs; i wont interfere with your choices, so let me have the right to do my own.. Yea if you say so. Perhaps he should have a chat with the guy who's designed containers and deployment systems to use mil-spec bands for 30 years and says "bands break for a reason, I designed it that way, use them". Nobody is impeding your beliefs or ability to jump. You're on a public forum offering advice that runs against the best expert advice out there, ignores a pretty obvious self-evident issue with non breaking stows and uses very selective anecdotes to claim the risks are equivalent. That's not about just your belief or right to jump whatever you want. You can recommend stows for their convenience all day long I really don't give a shit. I'd even agree with you, yep they're convenient, they don't break. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SimonBones 1 #43 September 23, 2009 QuoteThere are also numerous bag locks directly attributed to tube stows ... Which ones? I've never known one. I've heard people say on internet forums that they've heard of baglocks because of tube stoes. When asked HOW their baglock was because of tube stoes, the general answer is "because a rubber band would have broke" which is bullshit. In every baglock I've seen, the rubber band did not break. Tube stoes break a 25 pounds of force. Pilot chute averages 90 pounds of force. Easy math. There are NO baglocks directly attributed to tube stoes. It's far too easy to look at someone who had a baglock who coincidentally used tube stoes (again, I have never seen someone baglock with tube stoes), and claim that the tube stoes caused their baglock. Reality check: Rubber bands do the same thing! They will not break and lock a bag any day! It all depends on if the line/stoe gets sucked into the grommet. It can happen no matter what kind of stoe you use! And if it happens, rubber bands WON'T break! Quote...and part of that reason is they break. Funny, so do tube stoes! QuoteTube stows don't have to be as safe as bands... They don't have to be, because they're actually safer. Tube stoes roll off your lines, wearing them less, and reducing your chances of a baglock. Rubber bands flop over your lines, wear them faster, and increase the "race track effect" causing uneven line deployments. QuoteYea, what does that John Sherman guy know anyway. He knows how to make a Racer. A system that receives a lot of criticism for it's inherent safety (different debate, not siding). Many riggers charge extra fees in order to pack a Racer. They'd rather stay away from them! Why are Racers some of the only rigs out there who use rubber bands on their reserves? QuotePerhaps he should have a chat with the guy who's designed containers and deployment systems Like the people who've designed Javelins, Wings, Infinity, Mirage, Vectors/Microns, Vortex, VooDoo, etc. Why do none of them use rubber bands on their reserve deployment systems? I guess what they do "runs against the best expert advice out there". Right. I'm not going to take part in an argument on whether or not racer systems are safe, but of the rigs listed above, racer will certainly be last in line when I buy my next rig. If MOST rig manufacturers find it safer to use something rounded and ::gasp:: less 'breakable' than rubber bands, what does that tell you about choosing a geometry for your stoe? What does that tell you about the industry standard? Tube stoes are safer to use than rubber bands. The geometry of the stoe is more important for safety than the slightly lower break force. Rounded is safer than flat. I have no problem with other people choosing to use rubber bands over tube stoes. Some people would rather save a few dollars than go with the extra safety. I'd rather spend a few extra bucks and treat my equipment better. If you want to use rubber bands that's dandy. But trying to claim that they're better because the guy who builds Racers likes them is a silly argument. You can recommend rubber bands for their lower expense all day long I really don't give a shit. I'd even agree with you, yep they're cheap, they don't break or roll.108 way head down world record!!! http://www.simonbones.com Hit me up on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #44 September 23, 2009 DSE posted info on a bag lock directly attributable to tube stows to this thread, if you can selectively ignore that you can dismiss anything that hints at causality. The advice given on what not to do with tube stows in order to be safe is enlightening and makes a mockery of some claims made for them and you cannot address the line trapping issue with band geometry. Despite attempts to poison the well Sherman is not just a designer of rigs, but you can read his bio. He presents arguments that aren't merely an appeal to authority that are more compelling than line wear. One major reason jumpers have advocated tube stows on mains is that they do not break as often as rubber bands and are therefore more convenient. I have never even mentioned price, you've responded to a valid point with a straw man, but the nadir of your fallacies is the claim that in every band bag lock you've seen the band did not break. Tubes certainly break less readily than bands and are used because of this, dismissing the problem with this ignores the central issue. When mains are packed as carefully & expertly as reserves and deploy as predictably there might be stronger analogies to be drawn, buying all those freebags will be a lot less convenient than replacing bands though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SimonBones 1 #45 September 23, 2009 QuoteDSE posted info on a bag lock directly attributable to tube stows to this thread, I disagree, DSE posted info on a bag lock directly attributable to improper packing by someone who didn't know any better. If this packer had not uncollapsed the slider, not stowed the brakes, and not cocked the pilot chute, would the subsequent deployment problems be the fault of the slider, brake lines, and pilot chute? Or would that have been the fault of the packer? Quotebut the nadir of your fallacies is the claim that in every band bag lock you've seen the band did not break. Fallacy? While a flat rubber band lay flat against the lines increasing the amount of friction in order to pull them, a tube stoe would have rolled. Surely when a dbag with rubber bands is having a bag lock (as I have seen multiple times) your argument about their ability to break goes out the window. Baglocks are not caused because a stoe that does not break, a baglock is cause because the stoe will not release the lines. Therefor the more logical (and safer) trait in a stoe is an increased ability to release the lines (like rolling off of them) and not breaking. A tube stoe has an increased ability to release the lines. Your argument about the lower break force of a rubber band does not make sense because as seen over and over again, rubber bands do not break during a baglock. While a rubber band may have a slightly lower break force, it has a lesser ability to release lines. It's as if you're saying that every time you find a broken locking stoe rubber band you deduce that you would have had a baglock, but thankfully the rubber band broke. Could I not come to the same conclusion every time I find a broken locking tube stoe? After all, they only need 25 pounds of force to break and there is 90 pounds of pull force on it if it does not want to release the lines.108 way head down world record!!! http://www.simonbones.com Hit me up on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #46 September 23, 2009 >Tube stoes break a 25 pounds of force. Pilot chute averages >90 pounds of force. Easy math. DSE's didn't break. Your math is right, but your starting assumptions may be wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jkralovec 0 #47 September 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteDoes anyone know of any documented incidents where using tube stows instead of rubber bands actually caused a bag lock or any other problems? Any info or opinions are welcome concerning tube stows. Thanks Here is a scenario that fits the bill; this incident should be enough to make it clear that tube stows are not the best idea: http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/12.shtml Students off FJC can recognize tube stows as a risk. It's not just about double wrapping them, for example, rubber bands are designed to break in situations where lines get trapped in the excess loop. Jump what you like, but understand there's method to the minor inconvenience of correctly sized rubber bands. So she forgot to cock her pilot chute and because that didn't catch enough wind to pull the main canopy out it is the stows' fault? Am I understanding this correctly. I use rubber bands but you have got to be kidding me. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CReW 0 #48 September 23, 2009 I've been trusting Keener Rubber Bands for a long time with all types of line. All though not the perfect deployment solution they are the best for me. http://www.keenerrubber.com/Parachute.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #49 September 23, 2009 well it seems both tube stows and rubber bands can cause bag locks. I guess the real answer here is not to stow my lines at all.....I'll just accordion fold them into the container and hope for the best www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CReW 0 #50 September 23, 2009 <> That's for sure so we better be ready on every jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
