pilotdave 0 #101 October 2, 2009 QuoteI'm not answering for ozzy, but this has been my experience with spinners pretty much identical to his. Which is really where the skyhook has the advantage over a regular RSL or no RSL at all... when it works! I don't know why his skyhook disengaged in his cutaway and acted like a regular RSL, but if the skyhook feature had worked, it would have given him a much cleaner opening. Spinners under high performance mains are where the skyhook really shines. But of course it has to work. Trying to get stable after cutting away has killed a lot of people that thought they could do a better job than an RSL. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #102 October 2, 2009 Quote Hi Ozzy, Hi USPA If your honest to yourself, would it have made any difference in your case? YES IT WOULD You cutaway without arching and immediately pulled your reserve yourself. SO I SHOULD FOR LET THE RSL OR THE SKYHOOK TO PULL THE PIN FOR ME??? IS THAT WHAT YOU DO??? Also in your case the skyhook functioned as a normal RSL, instead of a proper skyhook.WHY IS THAT BECAUSE I WASNT ARCHING AS YOU STATED... IN THE LINK BELOW UPT SHOWS THE SAME SITUATION AS MINE AND IT WORK FINE. SO IM THE RARE CASE???? OOPS edited to add in there video they were on there belly in the spinner.. I guess you were right the skyhook doesnt work if you dont arch http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85&Itemid=70 I missed an entire page of posts, before I made this reply.You as well as a lot of other people... Here is the video again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEau0dc67e4 We can go back and forth for days on this. I was crapping in my pants to be honest with you. I probably could of kick out of the main if I tried But i didnt....Yes the skyhook worked as just a normal rsl in my case.. I would rather not have one now.. Nothing less, nothing more..Im done with this.. I spent enough time on it Enjoy..Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #103 October 2, 2009 Quote 2) the skyhook also cuts away one riser as it activates. RSL's don't. I have not seen one, but UPT tells me that the current generation Vector with non-Skyhook RSL has a Collins loop. I was asking about what might be legal for a rigger to do or not do in the case that his Skyhook-equipped customer did not wish to use the Skyhook anymore. They told me that, similar to the Sunpath postition, if the rig was built with a Skyhook or their RSL, you had to pack it that way. We are not allowed, for example, to leave the red lanyard off the hook. They also said that either the Skyhook or their current RSL includes a Collins loop, and it must be used. Any change to the system would be considered an alteration, requiring a Master Rigger, manufacturer's approval, and logging it as an alteration. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #104 October 2, 2009 Last I knew with the RSL, and I was envolved in discussion with Sunpath to get their language right but haven't looked at it in a couple of years, removing the RSL on a Javelin was an approved alteration but required a Master Rigger to do it and log it. It did not require separate approval by the Feds or the manufacturer. Are you saying UPT requires separate approval for each removal? You know what, I'm too out of date on this issue. Mainly because none of my customers HAVE a skyhook. Of course these days most of my customers are pilots. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #105 October 2, 2009 I agree, Besides the AAD, the skyhook system is IMHO the most complicated piece of safety equipment out there. In contract to that, I still like it...The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #106 October 2, 2009 Quote Last I knew with the RSL, and I was envolved in discussion with Sunpath to get their language right but haven't looked at it in a couple of years, removing the RSL on a Javelin was an approved alteration but required a Master Rigger to do it and log it. It did not require separate approval by the Feds or the manufacturer. Are you saying UPT requires separate approval for each removal? You know what, I'm too out of date on this issue. Mainly because none of my customers HAVE a skyhook. Of course these days most of my customers are pilots. Hi Terry, It all began when a customer asked me if his Skyhook-equipped rig could be packed as a more conventional RSL rig. I told him is was certainly feasible, but I didn't know if it was legal, and that I would ask UPT. I figured that since it would still be a configuration that is available from the factory, it should not be a very big deal. Just getting them to actually answer the question was like pulling teeth. After a bunch of email back and forth, I finally got an email with an answer. Here is the salient part of the email. Quote If the rig is equipped with it, it has to be packed with it. If you want to remove the Skyhook it has to be done by a Factory approved Master Rigger or equivalent, it the RSL is connected the Collins Lanyard has to be hooked up. I don't believe they have a blanket approval in place, so according to 65.129(d) you need a specific approval from UPT. 65.129(d) No certificated parachute rigger may alter a parachute in a manner that is not specifically authorized by the Administrator or the manufacturer And then there's the matter of what it takes to become a "Factory approved Master Rigger". Now, maybe I am reading a bit much into an answer that they didn't seem to want to give in the first place. But it sounds to me like they don't very much want to approve such an alteration. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #107 October 3, 2009 Like a jackass I just wasted the better part of the evening reading this backwards, trying to figure out who was copying and pasting what. I now have a headache and really forgot what the hell you guys are talking about so thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markovwgti 0 #108 October 3, 2009 You could have saved all this arguing and commotion by kicking out of it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #109 October 3, 2009 Quote You could have saved all this arguing and commotion by kicking out of it! Oh the infamous Marko that caused his own line twist at 1200 ft and if he didn't have a skyhook would probably be dead. Great commercial for UPT Seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QECtqCRNKxs&feature=related Now this thread has gone full circle Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #110 October 3, 2009 Here's the quick recap. Sorry your head hurts. Billvon said "RSLs don't have Collins function". I replied that I just learned that UPT RSLs now have Collins function. The reason I found out was that I have a customer who asked me if I could disable the Skyhook and make it work like a regular (UPT) RSL. In the process of getting that question answered, I learned that the current RSL on a new Vector has a Collins function. I also learned that UPT would consider the change my customer asked about an alteration, and it would require approval and a Master Rigger to do it. (I was a bit surprised by this, since all you need to do to go from Skyhook to RSL is leave the red Skyhook lanyard off the hook.) Councilman24 asked if UPT was requiring a separate approval for each instance of disabling the Skyhook. I replied that since there is no blanket approval on file (like what Sunpath did for removing their RSL), I thought that a separate approval was required, and that it didn't look like UPT was much interested in approving such and alteration in the first place. I haven't heard back from councilman24. That brings you up to date. Yes, it is a confusing stream-of-consciousness sort of discussion. But hey, it the web. I hope your head feels better soon. -paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liftedtitan 0 #111 October 3, 2009 Im just curious. If you happen to have an accidental reserve deployment that mal'd. like in the original video from the cesna. if he had knifed the reserve away before deploying his main, could the skyhook have cutaway just his right riser? Then he has nothing but a left riser to hang from. im just wondering basically if the cutting of the right riser scares anyone. i have no gripes either way, just wondering?Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liftedtitan 0 #112 October 3, 2009 Quote Quote You could have saved all this arguing and commotion by kicking out of it! Oh the infamous Marko that caused his own line twist at 1200 ft and if he didn't have a skyhook would probably be dead. Great commercial for UPT Seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QECtqCRNKxs&feature=related Now this thread has gone full circle LMFAO! ownage right there.Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 33 #113 October 3, 2009 Seems to be some misunderstanding of how the system works. I thought.... 1. 10# load disconnect of the skyhook was only if the reserve was deployed without cutting away the main, allowing the reserve pilot chute to disconnect from the RSL, not something that would disconnect the skyhook under a cutaway situation 2. The skyhook cuts-away the left, not the right riser 3. Unless you have the OLD style RSL set-up, a premature reserve deployment won't cut-away either riser. 4. The skyhook adds no complexity to the user for maintanance or operation, other than the possible disconnection of the RSL for CRW, canopy wrap, or high wind landings. 5. The lack of function of the original posters system sounds more like a packing/rigger error than anything else. If properly set up, I don't think the skyhook could NOT stay on the pilot chute bridle of the reserve, even during a spinning deployment. 6. Suggesting to a low time jumper that they would be better off without the skyhook is like suggesting that they would be better off without an AAD. Granted, under the right circumstance, anything can fail, but there are a lot more Skyhook saves that Skyhook problems. 6.This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #114 October 4, 2009 Ok I found another video on utube with the same result as me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn2pjJ-yGsI&feature=related I dont like being the only one Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liftedtitan 0 #115 October 4, 2009 Quote Ok I found another video on utube with the same result as me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn2pjJ-yGsI&feature=related I dont like being the only one that dudes hand was almost wrapped in that!!! wow, he got line twists in his reserve just like you, kinda weird.Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #116 October 5, 2009 This is why I became a rigger, it was first to help myself. I started jumping in 1973 and became a rigger in 1977. No regret at all.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #117 October 5, 2009 The Skyhook seems complex but it isn't. Seeing it working in both modes will convince a lot of people. Last year I had a demo of the Skyhook for the whole Summer. See the picture attached to this post. It has shown a lot of people that there was nothing to worry about. On the other hand your reserve will be open within 75 feet instead of 150-1200 feet as it could be seen on the Skyhook video. I had 2 totals therefore I had to pull my reserve handle and the Skyhook was released automatically as it is designed to do so. The Collins on the Skyhook will make sure that when having an accidental release of the right riser (the one with the RSL) due to a broken riser or a 3 ring breakdown..., the left riser will be released preventing having an entanglement between the reserve and the main still attached to the left riser.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markovwgti 0 #118 October 6, 2009 Quote Ok I found another video on utube with the same result as me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn2pjJ-yGsI&feature=related I dont like being the only one Well the difference here is he attempted to kick out of it.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydivesg 7 #119 October 6, 2009 I'm just adding to the thread, not responding to the last post.............. I made a statement upthread (post 38) and these videos just prove my point. That last video was a self induced spinner. Stop looking up and grabbing risers during deployment. You will have fewer malfuntions.Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sobakin 1 #120 October 6, 2009 Quote That last video was a self induced spinner. Stop looking up and grabbing risers during deployment. You will have fewer malfuntions. That was me, now I steering by rears while inflating, 90% onheading openings, more than 200 jumps w/o cutaway, but somtime it (Velo-79) still twists, but I untwist :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #121 October 6, 2009 Quote Quote Last I knew with the RSL, and I was envolved in discussion with Sunpath to get their language right but haven't looked at it in a couple of years, removing the RSL on a Javelin was an approved alteration but required a Master Rigger to do it and log it. It did not require separate approval by the Feds or the manufacturer. Are you saying UPT requires separate approval for each removal? You know what, I'm too out of date on this issue. Mainly because none of my customers HAVE a skyhook. Of course these days most of my customers are pilots. Hi Terry, It all began when a customer asked me if his Skyhook-equipped rig could be packed as a more conventional RSL rig. I told him is was certainly feasible, but I didn't know if it was legal, and that I would ask UPT. I figured that since it would still be a configuration that is available from the factory, it should not be a very big deal. Just getting them to actually answer the question was like pulling teeth. After a bunch of email back and forth, I finally got an email with an answer. Here is the salient part of the email. Quote If the rig is equipped with it, it has to be packed with it. If you want to remove the Skyhook it has to be done by a Factory approved Master Rigger or equivalent, it the RSL is connected the Collins Lanyard has to be hooked up. I don't believe they have a blanket approval in place, so according to 65.129(d) you need a specific approval from UPT. 65.129(d) No certificated parachute rigger may alter a parachute in a manner that is not specifically authorized by the Administrator or the manufacturer And then there's the matter of what it takes to become a "Factory approved Master Rigger". Now, maybe I am reading a bit much into an answer that they didn't seem to want to give in the first place. But it sounds to me like they don't very much want to approve such an alteration. Boy, I am sorry to be the source of such confusing information. UPT has recanted on the information they gave me and I posted here. I got an email today that says: Quote Sorry about the inaccurate information from the previous e-mail. If you don’t want the skyhook but you want the RSL we recommend that you remove the Hook from the bridle and the red lanyard, but since you have the RSL we recommend the use of the Collins Lanyard. If you don’t want the Collins Lanyard we recommend that you go to a straight pin and you remove the RSL completely from the system. No mention of requiring a manufacturer's approval. No mention of requiring a Master Rigger. (Please don't shoot the messanger.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #122 October 6, 2009 Quote Quote Ok I found another video on utube with the same result as me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn2pjJ-yGsI&feature=related I dont like being the only one Well the difference here is he attempted to kick out of it.... No the difference is you are a retard and the skyhook saved your life!!! Edited to add: No PA's here just factsNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sobakin 1 #123 October 7, 2009 Linetwist on high-loaded elliptical main canopy and linetwist on square reserve are not the same, on reserve you may not spinning to the ground, just fly forward and have time to untwist, but if You haven't this time, it means that skyhook saved your life, even with linetwist it's better, than with not deployed reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markovwgti 0 #124 October 7, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Ok I found another video on utube with the same result as me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn2pjJ-yGsI&feature=related I dont like being the only one Well the difference here is he attempted to kick out of it.... No the difference is you are a retard and the skyhook saved your life!!! Edited to add: No PA's here just facts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #125 October 7, 2009 So happy there are still logical thinking jumpers around...The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
