happythoughts 0 #26 October 25, 2004 Hmmm... what if they were depressed about their failures in life? Now they have positioned themselves to commit suicide and failed to follow through. They have compounded the problem. Perhaps it would have been better for them emotionally if they were allowed to jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #27 October 25, 2004 actually, this is very similar to something a lot of depressed people go through. It's called "overgeneralization" sort of an all around view to something very specific. for example, they fail to buy the right kind of milk for a recipe andtherefore interpret themselves as an absolutely horrible shopper that can never buy the right thing. This type of person might start thinking "but I failed at this...I feel like I just want to kill myself, but I'd probably fail at that too." it's a vicious cycle. for the most part, however, this cycle is easy to break (one of the less-complex mind-sets to cure as it's quite common) BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #28 October 25, 2004 Yes, that's just ONE of the common "distortions" that depressed people can have. There are many others, though, like all-or-nothing thinking, emotional reasoning, personalization. Quotethis cycle is easy to break (one of the less-complex mind-sets to cure as it's quite common) Yeah, I guess if ALL depressed people ALL go through "overgeneralization" (which is funny, because you made an overgeneralization! ) It may or may not be easy to break. It would be like any "bad habit." (Sorry for the gross analogy.) Telling someone who has been overeating for the past 30 years to just stop eating so much, while it seems simple, is such a part of their life, it really is deceiving.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #29 October 25, 2004 Quoteit's a vicious cycle. I agree. Soren Kierkegard (sp?) once said that the number of miracles that you see will depend on how much you believe in them. The reverse is true. If you look for the failure constantly, you will find it. A big danger that I have seen is alchohol. It allows the person to focus on their problems too clearly and repeatedly. They spend more time in negative thinking, deepening those feelings by repetition and concentration. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #30 October 25, 2004 QuoteIf you look for the failure constantly, you will find it. No, I'm just much more surprised when something good DOES happen! Mmm...I love my bitterness and pessimism!!! If you don't expect anything good, and it happens, all the better!There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #31 October 25, 2004 QuoteYeah, I guess if ALL depressed people ALL go through "overgeneralization" *sigh* re-read my post BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #32 October 25, 2004 QuoteThey are the selfish breed, and by my nature, I have little respect for selfish people. Am I the only one that sees the irony in that statement? -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #33 October 25, 2004 Quotesuicide is still the most selfish act one can commit; the effects on one's family and friends are devastating to say the least. This selfishness compounded with the method (stopping all traffic in a city of 2 million people) is truly morally incomprehensible and unforgiveable. I really wish people who have not been at the bottom would understand that it's a very bad place to be, and that suicide is not a selfish act the way you think it is, let alone morally unforgivable and "incomprehensible." I really wish that people would stop seeing it only from that perspective. But that's a wish I won't get, I know. And that's the pity of it. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #34 October 25, 2004 Quotewant to be a physical therapist and my minor is psychology. Great goals, and I wish you the best in your studies. Good luck! (And I mean that completely sincerely). QuoteI haven't studied the depressive mind quite as intensely as extreme mood disorders (i.e. hypomania, mania, schizophrenia) but I have done a bit in 'extreme depressive disorder' and dissociative things of the like. For someone to make the judgments you have (i.e. it's better to let them die, or the "so what...they're better off") worries me. If your goal is to work with the body, and understand how the body's illnesses affect the mind, I would suggest you learn a bit more about the depressive mind rather than "extreme mood disorders." Suicidal thoughts/ideations and actions are not "mood disorders" for the most part, but rather a chemical imbalance that has not been treated for many years. Situational depression is something which you will encounter a lot as a pt. Understanding it, and being able to have compassion regarding it, is something that will allow you a better result as a pt than believing as you seem to. Clinical depression is something that you, with a minor in psychology, will not have the ability to address, but you must be able to recognize it's symptoms to get your patient the help they need. And how situational depression can develop into full-blown clinical depression is something that will be vital to understand, if you intend to have a decent understanding of both psychology and physiology. Look, I'm not trying to slam you. I'm really not. But I am suggesting that you may be better served by learning a lot more about depression, before you pass judgment like you have done here on these boards. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #35 October 25, 2004 I think that everyone has a "line". It is the low-point in a persons life that the person would take their own life. People draw that line in different places. As an example, when asked, "Would you want to live if paralyzed from the neck down?" Almost everyone I know has answered "No". When the ratio of positives to negative things in a persons life is very small, people don't want to live. That can be a rational decision. Weighing that decision involves two things. What are the things that make life worth living? How are you perceiving them? People mostly agree on item 1. Generally, the problem area is item 2. When life is viewed in a distorted fashion and life is all bad, regardless of the actual events, then people do need help. After receiving that help, people can improve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #36 October 25, 2004 QuotePeople mostly agree on item 1. Generally, the problem area is item 2. When life is viewed in a distorted fashion and life is all bad, regardless of the actual events, then people do need help. After receiving that help, people can improve. I agree. What continually sticks in my craw, as it were, is the societal proscription against getting help. There are people who get to a point that suicide is an option without being paralyzed from the neck down, who really believe that it's a viable, good option, and who've lost all hope and faith that there can be a recovery from that state. And then to add to that feeling that their family - let alone friends, colleagues, and society at large - will look down on them for taking meds and getting help to become stable, and you have a horrible mix. The thought that their family, friends and colleagues believe as some posters have stated here - that they're better off dead, it doesn't matter, they are of no consequence - only adds to the belief. It's a horrible, vicious cycle, one which takes a lot of strength to counter once on meds, and nearly impossible to do so without meds. I very very well understand the depressive mind, and what happens while in a major depressive episode, even while on medications. I understand so very very well. And it's sad as hell to read that people believe depressives are better off dead instead of encouraging them to get help however they can. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #37 October 25, 2004 QuoteWhat continually sticks in my craw, as it were, is the societal proscription against getting help. I've been depressed, but at a milder level. I talked to a therapist. It was the best thing I ever did. A professional who is a trained observer and an uninvolved third-party to your life. I recommend it to anyone. QuoteThere are people who get to a point that suicide is an option without being paralyzed from the neck down, who really believe that it's a viable, good option, and who've lost all hope and faith that there can be a recovery from that state. Emotional pain can be more disabling than physical pain. It removes the joy from life just as effectively. QuoteThe thought that their family, friends and colleagues believe as some posters have stated here - that they're better off dead, it doesn't matter, they are of no consequence - only adds to the belief. Those people would be surprised at the number of their friends who have been through these stages. They wouldn't want to write off those people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #38 October 25, 2004 I, for one, am extremely grateful that there are people like Michele who help people like me out instead of believing that we're "better off dead." I'm also glad that there are people who don't fully understand it because they've never experienced it. I am happy for those people. I do, however, wish that people who don't fully understand it would not be so judgmental about it and would also read more about it before jumping to conclusions.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #39 October 25, 2004 QuoteA professional who is a trained observer and an uninvolved third-party to your life. I recommend it to anyone. It's not really a trained observer, though. They only have the information about your life that you give them. I don't really like going to my therapist because she's always looking for some deeper meaning/feeling that just isn't there. If I said I didn't really like vanilla ice cream, she'd want to try to uncover my deep hatred for it.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #40 October 25, 2004 QuoteI, for one, am extremely grateful that there are people like Michele who help people like me out instead of believing that we're "better off dead." Hugs, girl. QuoteI'm also glad that there are people who don't fully understand it because they've never experienced it. I am happy for those people. I do, however, wish that people who don't fully understand it would not be so judgmental about it and would also read more about it before jumping to conclusions. Agreed. On all parts. I am glad people don't understand it, because that means they've not been there. OTOH, I wish they'd realize they don't understand it, and would stop the judgment long enough to learn a bit more from people who've been there and survived. HT, I am glad that you were able to come through. And I agree, there are many people who won't write off people just because they don't understand. But I'd posit that while in a depressive state, it is impossible to see the reality of things, and instead distorted thoughts are pervasive. Couple that with some of the comments above, and you have confirmation of the perception (real or not...) that they are better off dead. And that just sucks. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wzettler 0 #41 October 25, 2004 Quotemy friend also had help, extensive help that did nothing. his pattern of thought jumped between several different psychological disorders, from mania to depression to schizophrenia (not in that exact order) until he began to get violent. That tells me he wasn't getting the proper help. Find someone else. Quotewith certain people, it would seem as if there is no way to recover the individual. This seems like a defeatist attitude to me and that you are giving up to easily. I hope you don't give up that easily on your own life if you ever find yourself under a malfunctioning reserve... I also feel for any future patients you may have in physical therapy or whatever profession you said you were going to get into. Never give up! For the record, I have a BS in psychology and I do not agree with your position. Every life is worth saving. Just think, one day it may be your kid... I think when Jesus said "love your enemy" he probably meant don't kill them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,444 #42 October 25, 2004 QuoteIt's not really a trained observer, though. They only have the information about your life that you give them. I don't really like going to my therapist because she's always looking for some deeper meaning/feeling that just isn't there. Maybe try to find a different one. One who can get you to figure out what the important things are to share, because they won't know what they are. The last time I went to a therapist I never really had an affinity for him. But man, every time I'd come up with some bullshit, he'd ask me an honest question that made me examine what I had just said, and put it into perspective. My thinking in the long run was that he was very skilled, and just better than I at seeing what was manipulation and what was important for a particular task (which he got me to identify in part). And then kept me on task regularly (not an easy job ) Not everyone can be saved, and no person should try to save everyone (ever hear of codependents?). But it's ennobling to participate in an honest effort where you pull together with others trying to do something good, and saving someone. This last weekend we had a massive search for a little girl close to where I live. A co-worker participated. It was not a happy ending, but he said that there was no talk about color, ethnicity, level of supervision, mental status, or anything else. Just people willing to give of themselves, and thinking "there but for the grace of God." They all learned something about themselves, and about others' capacity for helping sometimes. Damn I ramble Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #43 October 25, 2004 QuoteIt's not really a trained observer, though. They only have the information about your life that you give them. My therapist was able to "see" the patterns of my behavior that weren't making sense. He helped me identify things that I was distorting. I was using other peoples definitions for happiness, life, work, everything. He helped me say, "This is what I want and this is what I'm doing". Before, I was saying "Everyone says it's great, so it must be". QuoteI don't really like going to my therapist because she's always looking for some deeper meaning/feeling that just isn't there. Find another one. Seriously, it's like everything else, people don't always do their job in the way that it needs to be done. It is odd that you used vanilla ice cream as a metaphor. An obvious cry for help. It is probably because it is so plain. How about nuts on your ice cream? That would help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #44 October 25, 2004 QuoteFind another one. Seriously, it's like everything else, people don't always do their job in the way that it needs to be done. Yeah, that'll end up being really pricey if I have to go to many more! Other "techniques" have helped me out much more than therapy. To each their own. Some people find therapy to be their best strategy, it's just not for me. QuoteAn obvious cry for help. It is probably because it is so plain. How about nuts on your ice cream? That would help. You know...I have nothing against plain. I mean, my desk here is plain. My clothes are very plain. I'm just one big plain thingy!!! Ice cream is my outlet. It's my source of joy. I think you are just trying to take away my source of joy and make me feel miserable!!!!!!!! There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #45 October 25, 2004 QuoteIt's my source of joy. I think you are just trying to take away my source of joy and make me feel miserable!!!! Not at all. I was just trying to create a subliminal relationship where happiness equals ice cream and nuts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,444 #46 October 25, 2004 QuoteMy clothes are very plain. I'm just one big plain thingy!!! Oh Val!!! How can you say that!!! I have a picture above my filing cabinet of the dz.com 15-way at Perris, and that jumpsuit is most definitely NOT PLAIN! Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #47 October 25, 2004 Quotethat jumpsuit is most definitely NOT PLAIN! That's just my secret camera whore side looking for attention! There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #48 October 25, 2004 QuoteWhat is it about our culture that a single life is that important? If you truly believe this, I feel badly for you.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #49 October 25, 2004 >I'm just one big plain thingy!!! Right. Because the first thing I think of when I think of Val is 'plain.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #50 October 25, 2004 QuoteRight. Because the first thing I think of when I think of Val is 'plain.' I don't know if I want to delve too much into what the first thing people think of when they think of me!There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
