ShadowCount 0 #1 June 24, 2008 Is there any way you can hit the tailstabilizer when you exit the plane at the right time? I'm working on my regular exits (grand caravan) so I can do hop'npops. In other words...I exit plane on the left, behind the wing. I can ace floaters (climb out and float away) and dive exits towards the tail. But I feel that my regular exits (sit near the door squatted, jump out facing the wing/up jumprun) are not as they should be, but I'm afraid of jumping too hard in an upwards motion. I've seen a guy fly right (6 inches?) under the tail and I figure if he can do that, he can also hit it. So I guess I'm asking two related questions. 1. How can I improve my exits? 2. What should I not do if I want to stay away from the tail. I'm asking this because I've had it on my mind ever since I did my AFF1 and now there's a dude that killed himself because he hit the tail after exiting. I've read the topic and I know he jumped when the plane was still climbing but still. I've talked to my instructors about Q2. I'll ask them to check my exit this weekend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marnie7 0 #2 June 24, 2008 I learned to jump in a twin otter, I was taught to stand at the door and jump out and up into the wind. Now I am really concerned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ether 0 #3 June 24, 2008 QuoteI've talked to my instructors about Q2. I'll ask them to check my exit this weekend. I've quoted the relevant part of your post in boldface. With your jump numbers, don't try to think really hard about lots of "what if" questions -- they just make it harder to concentrate when you need to be really focused on nailing your jumps, and at worst could stop you from properly executing your emergency procedures should you need to. Your instructors will tell you what you need to know for the environment at your DZ, and you'll learn the rest as you progress and start travelling around to other DZs and start to jump from other planes. I've got low jump numbers too. I wish I hadn't watched so many malfunction videos when I was a student; I got a little paranoid and it slowed me down (which translates into $$$)!Looking for newbie rig, all components... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 14 #4 June 24, 2008 Just think more about pushing your body "sideways", rather than "up", as you exit. The tendancy is to push up as you arch and exit at the same time. Many newer jumpers doing hop n pops are so intent on getting stable that they are arching long before they get to the door. But, if you push sideways first, then arch after you pass through the door, you won't go up as much. On a Twin Otter, it would be pretty difficult to hit the horiz. stabilizer, as it's fairly high. The Caravan is not as high, but still mostly out of the way. The worst are Beechcraft - KAs and 99s. Make a point of noticing the attitude of the airplane in various stages of flight. As it's climbing, look at the angle of the horizon, compared to the wing or another horizontal member, like the bottom of the window frame. You will see that the angle is different from when it levels off on jumprun. If your jump plane flies jumprun with the flaps down, see how that changes the angle. Listen to the engines at various power settings and listen to the wind noise at different airspeeds. Don't just be a brainless passenger. Experience and observation will tell you a lot about what's going on with the airplane. Such knowedge is part of the "airmanship" that makes for a competent jumper, and can save your life someday. Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #5 June 24, 2008 Do you have a mock up at your DZ? If so I'd recommend getting with your local instructors and going over the exit with them. They are really in the best position to help you! There is nothing wrong with seeking advice here, but nothing IMO is better than talking to your local instructors. Hell, I still talk to my AFF instructors and get advice all the time. One of them does not drink beer, so a Diet Coke is in order from time to time... Take care, jump lots and learn more... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #6 June 24, 2008 Jump OUT. You shouldn't need to jump UP while exiting out of any aircraft.www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #7 June 24, 2008 1) NEVER jump up 2) If the plane is climbing, just roll out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #8 June 24, 2008 Quote Is there any way you can hit the tailstabilizer when you exit the plane at the right time? Read this: Fatality - Tail Strike - Bowling Green, MO - June 21st, 2008 Quote2. What should I not do if I want to stay away from the tail. With any plane and any angle/exit speed just sit in the door (if no gear in the way of course) just push yourself out into the wind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #9 June 24, 2008 I agree, there is no reason to jump UP, especially on a hop and pop where the plane may not be in level flight. Unless I am demostrating a seated poised exit for student and his or her instructor I allways crouch on the balls of my feet and hop side ways OUT to clear the aircraft, never ever UP. Depending on the attitude of the plane, I.E. in a climb, I will stay small until clear of the tail just in case. Standing poised exits with exagerated presentation are not for hop and pops. I have been seen a 206 stabilizer just barely clear a jumpers head because he wanted to practice an exit on a hop and pop. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tetra316 0 #10 June 24, 2008 Quote Quote Is there any way you can hit the tailstabilizer when you exit the plane at the right time? Read this: Fatality - Tail Strike - Bowling Green, MO - June 21st, 2008 The jumper did not exit the plane at 'the right time'. He exited early while the aircraft was still climbing. (at least that's the consesus from reading the thread) Would be interesting to know of any tail strikes from leveled off planes on jump run. I do know of a few from climbing hop & pops Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #11 June 25, 2008 see this http://makeithappen.com/spsj/collisio.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VideoFly 0 #12 June 25, 2008 Pay attention to the wing flaps. They should be down before exiting, and ideally, the engine thrust should be decreased. A slow level plane seems to be the safest to exit. Sometimes, pilots may not slow the plane and/or lower the flaps during exits. Be really careful in those situations. I any case, roll out to the side or drop down and out, using the relative wind to transition you to a free fall position. Do not jump up. Yes, you can strike the tail on some planes. I saw a friend strike the tail of a King Air with tragic results. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tetra316 0 #13 June 25, 2008 Quotesee this http://makeithappen.com/spsj/collisio.htm Good information, and a little scary that on 'normal' exits we are only a couple feet at most from hitting the tail every jump. Still it didn't clarify if Eric Hedges exited from the plane while it was on a level jump run, pilot green light given. Statistics on that scenario I'd really like to know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #14 June 25, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Is there any way you can hit the tailstabilizer when you exit the plane at the right time? Read this: Fatality - Tail Strike - Bowling Green, MO - June 21st, 2008 The jumper did not exit the plane at 'the right time'. He exited early while the aircraft was still climbing. (at least that's the consesus from reading the thread) Would be interesting to know of any tail strikes from leveled off planes on jump run. I do know of a few from climbing hop & pops I am quoting this to point out something. The important thing is that he didn't exit in the right WAY. Agreed, he should not have jumped when he did, but it is possible to exit safely at that time. It is NEVER safe to exit by jumping up.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #15 June 25, 2008 QuoteQuotesee this http://makeithappen.com/spsj/collisio.htm Good information, and a little scary that on 'normal' exits we are only a couple feet at most from hitting the tail every jump. Still it didn't clarify if Eric Hedges exited from the plane while it was on a level jump run, pilot green light given. Statistics on that scenario I'd really like to know. IIRC (remember that was 18 years ago), people gave different stories about whether or not the plane was level. If it wasn't exactly level it was was pretty darn close to being level. I don't remember if people said the green light was turned on. But the spot was good. He landed in the main landing area east of the buildings. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #16 June 25, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Is there any way you can hit the tailstabilizer when you exit the plane at the right time? Read this: Fatality - Tail Strike - Bowling Green, MO - June 21st, 2008 The jumper did not exit the plane at 'the right time'. He exited early while the aircraft was still climbing. (at least that's the consesus from reading the thread) Would be interesting to know of any tail strikes from leveled off planes on jump run. I do know of a few from climbing hop & pops I know of one incident where a freestyleist (remember freestyle ?) hit the tail of a King Air on exit on a supposed "normal" jump run. I also know of an incident where a surfboard... not a skyboard... a surfboard... hit the tail of a Twin Otter on exit on a normal jump run. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #17 June 26, 2008 >Would be interesting to know of any tail strikes from leveled off planes on jump run. Raoul Gravell, around 2001/2002 in Cross Keys. Hit a King Air tail with his camera helmet IIRC when exiting on jump run. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #18 June 26, 2008 I know one man who hit the tail of a Caravan from the camera step. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #19 June 26, 2008 QuoteDo not jump up. Problem is, too many new students are trained/conditioned to do just that when they learn out of an Otter. They then keep that muscle memory with them on the rest of the aircraft they jump. So maybe student training procedures in all types of aircraft should evolve a bit to account for this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperNerd1988 0 #20 June 26, 2008 I'm not familiar with the Otter. All of my training has been out of a 185. Why would people jump up on exit?There's a risk to skydiving that is not always mentioned; the risk of becoming addicted to it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JumpHog 0 #21 June 26, 2008 QuoteRaoul Gravell, around 2001/2002 in Cross Keys. Hit a King Air tail with his camera helmet IIRC when exiting on jump run. I was just thinking about that today. I was there the day it happened. It was actually from a Grand Caravan. He hit the tail hard enough to break the carbon fiber bone on his flat top pro helmet. Fortunately, he made it out with only a concusssion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #22 June 26, 2008 QuoteI'm not familiar with the Otter. All of my training has been out of a 185. Why would people jump up on exit? One reason is because they can."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #23 June 26, 2008 I disagree that students are being taught to jump up out of an Otter. At my dropzone they are being taught to jump sideways from inside the door and then arch, which when practiced on the ground, makes your head go up because there's ground in the way. On poised exits they are being taught to just let go and arch into the wind. I really doubt that there are people out there teaching students to put any upward thrust into their exits. I will admit, however, that I don't spend any time talking about tail strikes because it really isn't a concern in an Otter. As far as NEVER jump up goes, I think that people who fly point on 8-way teams or even outside center on 4-way teams might disagree. Finally, I think what matters is that people are taught why certain exits are done in certain circumstances. It is not enough to tell people NEVER jump up. Teach people what happens on exit and why and they will be able to apply that knowledge to unfamiliar circumstances. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #24 June 26, 2008 I didn't mean necessarily all students. But one standard AFF count is "Check in, check out, [followed by] up, down, arch." Unless he's specifically trained not to go up as part of "arch', it's logical and intuitive for an adrenaline-hyped student who has just flexed his knees on the "down" count to extend them back up as part of the "arch" count. That might leave a student with the impression that he's supposed to thrust himself back up on the "arch" count; and that might translate into a muscle memory to do that. I'm really just advocating some fine-tuning of training on this fine point. Specifically teaching them, as your DZ does, to go sideways, and not up (together with an explanation as to why), is exactly what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #25 June 26, 2008 I flat out tell students that even though it's called 'jumping' out of a perfectly good airplane, there's actually no jumping involved. Present to the wind and let the relative wind and gravity do the job out of the KA, and on the cessna, just kicking the foot that's on the step back is all that's needed, the plane will fly away and gravity will do it's thing. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites