AggieDave 6 #26 August 23, 2004 For a student jumper (a jumper with out an A license or greater) to jump with someone else, they have to be a Coach or higher rated jumper. So yes, a student has to jump with atleast a coach until he/she gets her license (according to the USPA). I'm not sure how the coach prices are else where, but at my DZ all of our coaches teach what is basically "watered down Skydive University" all the freefall coaches are SDU graduates as well. The cost including the gear rental and all is $75. That includes the pack job and the coach's slot and very small amount of money the coach gets (basically covers the coach's packjob). The student gets indepth and involved ground training on the freefall skills and it is done in the air. Everything is debriefed in a similar fashion to SDU. People hate the coaching program simply because they haven't seen it implimented properly and done correctly yet. If I was a student and had the bare minimum coach that just got his rating and barely passed, I would be PISSed paying to have a coach "teach" me. Now, I'm also looking at our coaching program pretty pissed off too...I wish I had coaches like that during my student training over 4 years ago. I would be a better skydiver today if I had that level of training.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John4455 0 #27 August 23, 2004 I see a lot of new AFF graduates come out of the progam with acute cases of "Cessnaphobia" How do ya like it Johnny? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #28 August 23, 2004 i do belive that AFF students often are more scared for jumping if its a low lift(thinking DK were we can operate under clouds).therefore a safe altitude as 3300ft suddenly becomes a problem for an AFF student,were it dosnt to a SL student. I will agree that coached jumps as AFF is the way to go,perhaps mix in some more low jumps there? no not just becours im a BASE jumperi dont really care anymore as i farly dont skydive anymore.. just a thourght i seemed to rember.. Stay safe Stefan Faber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #29 August 23, 2004 3300? That's turning points altitude for us S/L graduates!It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #30 August 23, 2004 Quote If you break it down, S/L students tend to take a couple extra jumps to complete the A card then the AFF and the Tandem ISP students. So it really does come out even (or in many cases, more expensive) in the end. Depends a lot on the dropzone. I started up doing SL and it was $45 a SL jump past the initial FJC. That included the rig, instructor, altitude and pack job. I know some DZs that charge $50 for just for gear rental(gear, ticket and pack job). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #31 August 23, 2004 Dave, I agree that a student that progressed through the 7 levels of AFF, and then did 18 jumps under the supervision of a well trained Coach would probably as you say have an ability comparable to someone who trained static line/IAD at 100 jumps, if the SL jumper then did a bunch of two ways with another new “A” skydiver, as is often the case. I had a guy give me his opinion the other day regarding the move toward head down/free fly. It was his opinion that a fair percentage of skydivers start free flying because the “sky gods” refuse to do belly down RW with someone green. A more competent skydiver at 25 jumps might just change that percentage a bit. One advantage of a small one Cessna DZ is that through the months long, drawn out SL progression a student spends a lot of time at the DZ getting to know the “regulars”. Once they get that most difficult of licenses to obtain (A), their part of our little (sometimes somewhat dysfunctional) family, and we all take them under our communal wing. Each training method has its advantages and disadvantages, but I would bet that once someone has 50-100-200-1300-1600 jumps, they are seldom quizzed on what their training method was.Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #32 August 23, 2004 Quote It was his opinion that a fair percentage of skydivers start free flying because the “sky gods” refuse to do belly down RW with someone green. Yeah, that sucks. Belly skills are really good to have (I'm a wanna-be FFer), but belly skills are very necissary to function well across skydiving. As a side note, the comparison is remembering what I was able to do at 100 jumps compared to what the students at my DZ are able to do when they get their license.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #33 August 23, 2004 Dave, the S/L program maybe the only program that some DZs can afford. Your blanket statements about training aren't all true. It all depends on the student and the JM/Coach. There are some very good instructors out there, and some bad ones. I've been to your DZ and am impressed by the wonderful set up that Todd has in place for students, but you need to spread your wings a little, and go out into the big wide world and experience other DZs and see what other kind of training is out there. Take a little from this, and a little from that. It will make you more well rounded.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #34 August 24, 2004 Quote Dave, the S/L program maybe the only program that some DZs can afford I agree. A small DZ may have less instructors and airpower to be viable at AFF. 1 JM, 1 radio controller and a couple of packers can easily do 60 IAD/static line students in one day out of a 182 (been there, done that). Yesterday, I dispatched 23 IAD students in less than two and a half hours. Could 2 Instructors handle 23 AFF students in the same amount of time? To be viable with AFF, the DZ prices would have to be through the roof! BTW, $2000 US will get you about 50 jumps on our IAD progression. How many is that on the AFF program at most DZs? (I'm really curious, I'm not being snotty) I'm pretty sure that's more jumps and skill acheived even if the progression takes longer. I'm not saying that AFF or even PFF is inferior to IAD/SL, I'm just saying that it is a proven method, it is less cost prohibitive, and it is the most viable option for smaller DZs. Next, they'll say we suck 'cause all we got is a bug smashing cessna! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #35 August 24, 2004 Quote Dave, the S/L program maybe the only program that some DZs can afford. I dig, that's the story of the DZ I started at. Quote Your blanket statements about training aren't all true. It all depends on the student and the JM/Coach. There are some very good instructors out there, and some bad ones. I understand, I guess my blanket statements come about from having to defend the USPA coach program and the ISP against some really big misconceptions and some really badly implemented versions of the program and coaches. I guess I've had it up to here (holding hand by neck) with it. I have made it around, but not as much as I should, I've only been able to go to 7 other DZs besides my home, all but one in TX. Although each one of the DZs had a drastically different approach to students. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #36 August 24, 2004 Quote I understand, I guess my blanket statements come about from having to defend the USPA coach program and the ISP against some really big misconceptions and some really badly implemented versions of the program and coaches. I guess I've had it up to here (holding hand by neck) with it Dave, change is always hard to accept. Heck, I remember when AFF and Tandems first came out. People said they would never work. Look where we are at with them now. People starting to jump squares........wow, we thought they would die for sure. Then when rip cords got replaced by pilot chutes......get the point. Don't get all worked up when people don't see eye to eye with you on training and equipment used. Over time, the training will be more widely accepted.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #37 August 24, 2004 Quote Don't get all worked up when people don't see eye to eye with you on training and equipment used. Over time, the training will be more widely accepted. Quicker if I can force them to the my ways... Alrighty, you've got some cool shizzle for Morgan to jump on at the boogie? I know there's a group of us that want the TeXXas maroon patch...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #38 August 24, 2004 Quote Alrighty, you've got some cool shizzle for Morgan to jump on at the boogie? I know there's a group of us that want the TeXXas maroon patch... It's a pink patch. Morgan has proven she can hang. I would be honored to jump with her any time.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #39 August 24, 2004 Maroon, as in the Aggie patch.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #40 September 19, 2004 Quote Quote Most definatley, look in the face of a student who has only done tandems/ AFF when it is time for their Clear and Pull, a whole new world of terro No shit! It cracks me up really. Its amazing how two different people can look at 5.5k and go "damn we're really high" or "damn we're really low." Its even more fun on the 3.5k hop-n-pop. This, my friends, is where I am at now ... My 3.5k hop and pop is almost all I have left, and it kinda freaks me out how low it is :) FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #41 September 19, 2004 Quote After the 7 jumps/levels (which are somewhat costly if repeated), is it required, or just suggested that the neophyte skydiver jump with a coach for all or some of the rest of the required jumps? . I am an AFF Grad, and since passing level 7 AFF the only other jump I have done with a coach was jump 15 because I had 1 day over a month since the previous jump... I do however have to do 3 more coach jumps before I can get my license, which I need to do soon.. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
