Senior or master rigger?

[mcordell 2]

Do I need a senior or master rigger to replace the reserve pilot chute on my vector rig? I bought a new pilot chute but obviously the bridle will have to be unstitched from the old pilot chute and re-stitched around the new one. I didn't know if this counted as a modification or maintenance or whatever and who I needed to have do it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

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[indyz 1]

It is just a simple larks head knot, no sewing. Any rigger can do it.

[councilman24 37]

No sewing involved.

It's rigger magic.

Senior rigger can do it.

But I'm curious why you needed, or think you needed, a new pilot chute. That is a very rare switch.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerpaul 1]

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No sewing involved.

It's rigger magic.

Senior rigger can do it.

But I'm curious why you needed, or think you needed, a new pilot chute. That is a very rare switch.

And how you came to this decision without already consulting your rigger.

[mcordell 2]

I came to this decision after speaking with a rigger...and after speaking with UPT. I suppose I left out the part that my vector was just recently reassembled after years of inactivity. It got a new harness courtesy of tom dolphin and a new reserve. The pilot chute is a vector I pilot chute and while it still measures 22 pounds, acceptable by UPT standards for the old pilot chute, I wanted to upgrade to the new vector pilot chute as soon as I had the money, which I do now. Unfortunately the bridle is not larks headed around the pilot chute, it is actually stitched...must have been how it was done once upon a time as this is how it came from UPT....well I guess it was relative workshop.

This rig is fine for now, but it will be unpacked and repacked, along with several other rigs, numerous times here in a couple months for training. I don't know that the old spring style will endure this without dropping below the 20 pound threshold. I figured it is better to replace it now than have it not be airworthy and have to wait for a replacement pilot chute later. I failed to ask mr dolphin while i was in MO what level of rigger would have to do it since it required stitching. I didn't know if replacement of the pilot chute with a different type qualified as a repair since it is factory directed or if it was a modification since it's different.

thanks.

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[JerryBaumchen 1,354]

Hi Mike,

What some of the up-posters may not realize ( ) is that RWS/UPT has done them both ways. I have seen them both ways over the years; sewn on as you mentioned and (or? ) via a Larks Head knot ( slip-on ).

I would recommend that you find a Senior Rigger, have him sew the loop at the top of the bridle, & THEN install the new pilot chute via a Larks Head knot. This takes almost all of the stress off of the stitching as, I 'think' ( since it seems nothing is set in stone ) that is the current UPT configuration.

As to switching to the newer Vector II pilot chute, I understand that doing so is a RWS/UPT recommended change-out.

Good question; and it seemed to get some folks thinking.

JerryBaumchen

[riggerrob 643]

A Senior Rigger should be able to re-sew the end of your bridle, as long as his sewing is a close copy of the original factory stitch pattern.

Was that bridle originally sewn with E Thread or FF thread?

After your local rigger finishes re-sewing the bridle end, attach your new pilot chute with a lark's head knot.

[mark 107]

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A Senior Rigger should be able to re-sew the end of your bridle, as long as his sewing is a close copy of the original factory stitch pattern.

Was that bridle originally sewn with E Thread or FF thread?

After your local rigger finishes re-sewing the bridle end, attach your new pilot chute with a lark's head knot.

I disagree. The ease with which a repair may be made is only one factor in determining whether it is a minor repair (=may be done by a Senior Rigger) or major (=must be done by a Master Rigger). By AC 105-2C para 12, a major repair is one that "might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness." For the proposed repair, the issues are structural strength and, if the length of the bridle is changed, performance. I'd say it's a Master Rigger task.

Mark

[mcordell 2]

it's packed now, so I can't look, but I believe it was sewn with E thread if I remember correctly. The whole idea of unstitching and restitching a reserve bridle scares me. I have nightmares of pulling silver only to end up with a flapping bridle and a missing pilot chute

Perhaps I should contact RWS for a definitive answer?

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[masterrigger1 2]

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I disagree. The ease with which a repair may be made is only one factor in determining whether it is a minor repair (=may be done by a Senior Rigger) or major (=must be done by a Master Rigger). By AC 105-2C para 12, a major repair is one that "might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness." For the proposed repair, the issues are structural strength and, if the length of the bridle is changed, performance. I'd say it's a Master Rigger task.

Absolutely correct!
But, I would call it an alteration instead of a major repair.

When that P/C- Freebag assembly was manufactured it was considered a single unit assembly as it was sewn together.

Changing it to a two part assembly makes it a alteration by the FAA's own definition of an alteration.

See AC-105-2C Paragragh 8, 8(a), and 8(b)(1).

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[diablopilot 2]

I've got to say I agree with Mark, and Mark. Although the work is simple enough that even a non certified person could handle it (and probably does at the manufacturer), by the regs in the US (FAR's) it's an alteration.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Hi,
I jump a very old rig (1992). I am comfortable with that but part of that comfort comes from knowing that a master rigger frequently inspects it. The price will be the same no matter who does the work. Why don't you get the more seasoned rigger to have a look at your gear before you put it in service.

[riggerrob 643]

I will agree that re-sewing a bridle gets into the gray area between minor repairs and major repairs.
An FAA Senior Rigger is not allowed to "alter" certified components, but if his stitch pattern is close to the factory stitch pattern ... uses the same thread, etc. he can probably get away with "exceeding his certificate."

In conclusion: if you are going to "exceed your certificate" do it so neatly that most riggers cannot distinguish between your sewing and factory sewing.

[erdnarob 1]

I agree with you and as as far as I know, any sewing machine work has to be done by a FAA Master rigger or a rigger B in Canada who is the master rigger equivalent.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[mark 107]

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I agree with you and as as far as I know, any sewing machine work has to be done by a FAA Master rigger or a rigger B in Canada who is the master rigger equivalent.

I am not familiar with Canadian rules. However, in the US there are senior rigger level repairs that require a sewing machine. For example, PD says that canopy holes less than a certain size and more than a certain distance from critical components may be repaired by a senior rigger. And Poynter says line replacement on a continuous line non-certificated (main) canopy may be done by a senior rigger.

Mark

[masterrigger1 2]

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I am not familiar with Canadian rules. However, in the US there are senior rigger level repairs that require a sewing machine. For example, PD says that canopy holes less than a certain size and more than a certain distance from critical components may be repaired by a senior rigger. And Poynter says line replacement on a continuous line non-certificated (main) canopy may be done by a senior rigger.

While I agree that a senior rigger can do repairs with a sewing machine, They still have to be within the regulations.

The rigger must know his or her limitations and only work within the privilages that he or she has.

A manufacturer such as PD may state who can do what, but it is still up to the individual rigger to know his or her limitations. They are not always right.

Basically they can not "upgrade" a senior rigger certificate simply by putting out a statement as such.

Also, Poynter has several mistakes in his manual and that is one of them.


BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[roccoflys 0]

hrm. according to sandy reid's parachute rigger's handbook- which, correct me if i'm wrong, i believe is the reference book now used for the written exam- states that a senior or master rigger can replace a main line set. was that the mistake you were referring to in poynter?

[mcordell 2]

the problem was solved with little difficulty. We pulled the reserve and found that while the bridle was looped through the attachment point and restitched, there was a significant enough loop to allow for us to change it with no problem. We simply cut the bridle attachment point on the old pilot chute and removed it. We then larks headed the bridle onto the new pilot chute....problem solved

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[tdog 0]

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Also, Poynter has several mistakes in his manual and that is one of them.


BS,
MEL

So, Poynter says a senior rigger can replace lines on a main, assuming the previous post is accurate as I have not verified it is in the handbook....

Poynter's works are the basis for 50% of the FAA exam questions and are respected by most everyone, and are considered to be one of the definitive handbooks that protect riggers when his procedures are followed.

The FAA in the Parachute Rigger Handbook says a senior rigger can replace lines on a main. I know you hate this manual, but the fact is it was published by the FAA so we have to assume someone in the FAA with authority approved it's interpretations.

Most riggers, senior and master, agree with the Poynter and FAA documents as industry standard interpretations of the rules.... But, you still are still 100% convinced these industry standard documents, including one published by the governing body, are "mistakes".

I have discussed with multiple master riggers how they interpret the rules, and I find you are in a minority.

I have learned a lot from your posts over the years, but I am just sayn' I don't believe you have the credibility to proclaim you are definitively correct when the opposing documents carry a lot more weight than you carry.


Although I 100% agree, no rigger should do any work they are not 100% trained and knowledgeable about... Some of the senior riggers that are rushed thru weekend courses - they should refuse to do linesets - not because of their senior rating, but because they are not competent to do the work. This is the other facet of the regulations that would limit untrained riggers to do the work as a rigger needs to know when to say "no" by the rules.

[masterrigger1 2]

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Poynter's works are the basis for 50% of the FAA exam questions and are respected by most everyone, and are considered to be one of the definitive handbooks that protect riggers when his procedures are followed.

First off, I do not know where you think Poynter's book "protects riggers as it has no FAA backing. It is just a book...

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Poynter's works are the basis for 50% of the FAA exam questions and are respected by most everyone, and are considered to be one of the definitive handbooks that protect riggers when his procedures are followed.

Poynter basically copied what the manufacturer's and Military gave him at the time he was writting the book. Also remember at the time he was writting the book the FAA could care less what we did and never enforced the regulations.

If you look close enough, you will find H/C's in the book that do not have TSO's listed in there. You will have to put two and two together to figure out which ones.



The FAA in the Parachute Rigger Handbook says a senior rigger can replace lines on a main. I know you hate this manual, but the fact is it was published by the FAA so we have to assume someone in the FAA with authority approved it's interpretations.

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I guess you missed the fact that we have had meetings and discussions with the FAA regarding the written test, it's content and the Sandy Reid book.

...they are contracting out for another book....

We there was one lone guy that reviewed the manual. Let's just say they understand it was a mistake.

I have discussed with multiple master riggers how they interpret the rules, and I find you are in a minority.

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Maybe.. But you are a beginning rigger and I take your commentts with the weight that it carries.

I have discussed with multiple master riggers how they interpret the rules, and I find you are in a minority.
***

More than likely, the Master rigger's that you have talked to have not:
1. Looked at the regulations in years

2. Ever been in direct contact and discussions with the AFS-100 ( the Legal Department)


For what it's worth, I have and still am in contact with the Legal department and can assure you this.

If you kill or injure someone by relining a main as a Senior rigger: you probably will be meeting the legal department.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[Beatnik 2]

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If you look close enough, you will find H/C's in the book that do not have TSO's listed in there. You will have to put two and two together to figure out which ones.

I don't want to be part of this debate going on cause it doesn't affect me in slightest. But I would like to know what does the non TSO'd gear in the book have to do with the argument. I don't think they are hard to figure or find out as they are out in the open.

[masterrigger1 2]

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I don't want to be part of this debate going on cause it doesn't affect me in slightest. But I would like to know what does the non TSO'd gear in the book have to do with the argument. I don't think they are hard to figure or find out as they are out in the open.

It just points out the fact that:

1. We never really followed the regulations by building rigs with the required TSO's.

2. The FAA never followed through with any oversight "back in the day".

3. Poynter never identified these rigs as lacking TSO's , which I consider a mistake.

Cheers,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[riggerrob 643]

"...Poynter says line replacement on a continuous line non-certificated (main) canopy may be done by a senior rigger.

Mark

[roccoflys 0]

i'll ask again..... i guess sandy reid's book holds no clout, then? and isn't the written exam based on this book? and wasn't it APPROVED by the faa (my copy sure was)? it clearly says in this handbook that a senior rigger can replace main lines.
wait, wait.... is this one of these grey areas?

also- i'd like to know where the line is drawn (since we're drawing them) between a repair and an alteration... b/c it seems to me that it is a fairly subjective argument here. a patch could effect the airworthiness of a main, yet a sr rigger can patch a canopy. replacing control lines can also- again, senior rigger are qualified.

i guess what i'm saying here is that as a group, we need a set of rules to go by. the faa writes these rules. there is a portion of subjectivity in all rules.
masterrigger- why so cut and dry on the line set replacement? why are there so many that disagree with you? i'd like to know exactly where is says that a line set replacement can be done only by a master rigger. *i have only been rigging for about 4 yrs, so i'm totally open to being schooled here- but i want to know that what you're saying is FACT, not interpretation.
and whether or not there is a contract out for a new manuel, the parachute rigger's handbook is the one being used currently (and much easier to interpret than poynter, imo).

[mcordell 2]

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i'll ask again..... i guess sandy reid's book holds no clout, then? and isn't the written exam based on this book? and wasn't it APPROVED by the faa (my copy sure was)? it clearly says in this handbook that a senior rigger can replace main lines.
wait, wait.... is this one of these grey areas?

also- i'd like to know where the line is drawn (since we're drawing them) between a repair and an alteration... b/c it seems to me that it is a fairly subjective argument here. a patch could effect the airworthiness of a main, yet a sr rigger can patch a canopy. replacing control lines can also- again, senior rigger are qualified.

i guess what i'm saying here is that as a group, we need a set of rules to go by. the faa writes these rules. there is a portion of subjectivity in all rules.
masterrigger- why so cut and dry on the line set replacement? why are there so many that disagree with you? i'd like to know exactly where is says that a line set replacement can be done only by a master rigger. *i have only been rigging for about 4 yrs, so i'm totally open to being schooled here- but i want to know that what you're saying is FACT, not interpretation.
and whether or not there is a contract out for a new manuel, the parachute rigger's handbook is the one being used currently (and much easier to interpret than poynter, imo).

I guess I'm confused on one point here....what difference does it make who does what on a main if it isn't TSO'd. Repairs and alterations are not required to be documented on mains correct? The main canopy is not required to be TSO'd correct? The regulation says you have to have two parachutes, one of which must be certificated and packed by a rigger right? I understand repairs and alterations to the container and reserve fall under the FAA regulation but I was under the impression the FAA didn't really give much of a shit about the main, so long as there is one. Am I wrong about this? And before anyone jumps all over me, I really am wondering and wanting a real answer.

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