New Canopy Options

[danielshadwick 0]

I just sold my Spectre190 (my first canopy) and now I am downsizing to a 170 and switching to a 9cell. I have had my mind set on a safire2 169 for sometime but after watching the classifieds for a couple weeks I'm begining to think it may not happen.

I also have been looking at the Sabre170. Any opinions? on any canopies. I have 185 jumps and I'm about 205lbs OTD. I have also looked at a few Crossfires but have been talked out of goin from a Spectre to an elliptical.


Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[Bip 0]

I am currently jumping a Pulse-170 which I would recommend to anyone. It might not be as racy as some but the toggle response is nice and tight, it flies a long way and is a dream to pack. I moved from a Spectre-170 to this canopy and I do not regret it.

[lilchief 1]

It commonly known that going from a lightly loaded spectre to elliptical isn't a good idea.

However, I'd recommend you to borrow a sabre2/safire2/pilot 170 and get the feel of it. If you find it edgy and that you just manage to handle it, stay there and don't progress any further yet. If you find it not that big of a difference, then try an elliptical. Again, see if you may borrow it at you local DZ. If yo're able to handle it and you want one, go for it. If you're not able to fly it safely and in pattern and land it without any problems, take one step back. There's no shame taking one step back..! As long as you stay in the sport and jump regularly and that you're open for new ideas and knowlegde, you'll sooner or later progress further and may downsize again.

But when trying the out, pull at...6000f minimum to let you play with the canopy. Practice flare and get a feel on how the canopy is behaving with YOU under it. No one is learning a new canopy from 3 grand after a FF/FS/what-not jump.

Best of all..gather a lot of info here @dz.com, and ask one of the instructors at your DZ that you trust(who is neither to radical or conservative). See what that person tells based on how you've been flying previously on your spectre.

If someone approached me at my DZ with the same question, I'd say go for an elliptical and not to worry. BUT..that only applies if that person is doing a hop'n pop from full altitude or pulling high, above 6 grand.

Remember that all the advice given here are based on theories and what's "commonly" seen at DZ's. The feedback we may give you here is not adequate, IMO, compared to someone who have seen you land your old parachute.

Also, have a rigger help you out with the new canopy so you don't get ripped off.

Good luck!

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[millertime24 8]

Don't count out the Pilot either. It's a little more tapered than the Spectre and I find it turn a little quicker. Also, looking at the classifieds isn't a bad idea, but how much are you looking to spend? Most gear dealers can get you gear for several hundred $$ less than retail (ei. my pilot goes for $1960. My DZO got it for me for about $1450!). Keep your head up and your eyes open. You'll find something.

Muff #5048

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Demo a couple different ones.

PD does demos from the factory, Icarus does them through Para-Concepts (Gear store at Skydive Chicago, Icarus factory service center), Aerodyne probably does them, but I don't know through who (I'm sure someone will chime in).

A lot of boogies have factory reps offering demo canopies.

Fly the ones you are interested in and find which one you like best.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Skydivesg 7]

Better yet. Go to the Skydive Expo in Deland (March11-14).

Every major gear manufacturer will be there.

You can demo everything there is in every size and the people who design the gear will be there to help educate you about it.

Plus all the seminars listed are going to be amazing.

www.skydiveexpo.com

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[ElyJs 0]

or demo my canopy for free at your home DZ! I weigh the same exact as you and my first canopy was a spectre 190 as well. Made the transition to CF2 169.

[Psychonaut 0]

Uh.... I hope you don't mean a crossfire...

Stay high pull low

[ElyJs 0]

yeah exactly what I mean. In my experience size first then planform. So a Sabre 150 is going to dive a lot more then a CF 170. Obviously a CF 170 whill dive more then a sabre2/pilot/safire 170.

[dragon2 2]

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So a Sabre 150 is going to dive a lot more then a CF 170

No way.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[danielcroft 2]

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=285841663777&ref=ts

I'm sure the OP and Ely could get a lot from the School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying.

[Anvilbrother 0]

size is not all that matters. Taper, trim, line length, types of lines, height of the actual canopy, cells, material, bracing all come into play....

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[DocPop 1]

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yeah exactly what I mean. In my experience size first then planform. So a Sabre 150 is going to dive a lot more then a CF 170. Obviously a CF 170 whill dive more then a sabre2/pilot/safire 170.

TROLL

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[ElyJs 0]

Quote

Quote

So a Sabre 150 is going to dive a lot more then a CF 170

No way.

At thsese lower wingloadings I feel size matters most in my perception of how a cnopy flies. The speed flying straight should in theory be the same. A CF has a longer recovery arc but I feel between a 190 and a 170 especially, size makes a larger difference.

My personal experience is exactly as stated comparing a CF2169 to a Sabre I 150

Willing to listen to your thoughts on the issue.

www.performancedesigns.com/docs/wingload.pdf Interesting reading

[dragon2 2]

I'd rather take say a safire 109 or similar on a wingsuit jump than my vengeance 135 - the safire is a much more docile canopy while fun to fly because of it's size, it behaves much better and dives less (planes out real fast) than the vengeance does, while being a good 2 sizes smaller. The vengeance can dive like hell even at the quite low (for a HP canopy) 1.3 WL I fly it at, while say my pilot 124 or safire 109 will not dive nearly as much or for as long. They also do not require counter steering or as much attention during opening.

IMO it's safer for a new skydiver (or a new wingsuit pilot) to fly a 1 or 2 sizes smaller beginner/intermediate type canopy (= up to a sabre2, a sabre 1 is much more docile than a sabre 2) than fly a bigger xfire type canopy.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[ElyJs 0]

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I'd rather take say a safire 109 or similar on a wingsuit jump than my vengeance 135 - the safire is a much more docile canopy while fun to fly because of it's size, it behaves much better and dives less (planes out real fast) than the vengeance does, while being a good 2 sizes smaller. The vengeance can dive like hell even at the quite low (for a HP canopy) 1.3 WL I fly it at, while say my pilot 124 or safire 109 will not dive nearly as much or for as long. They also do not require counter steering or as much attention during opening.

IMO it's safer for a new skydiver (or a new wingsuit pilot) to fly a 1 or 2 sizes smaller beginner/intermediate type canopy (= up to a sabre2, a sabre 1 is much more docile than a sabre 2) than fly a bigger xfire type canopy.

Thanks for sharing, you bring up some good valid points. Between the Sabre I 150 and CF169 I will stick with the fact I can get the Sabre I to dive longer, but I will concede that you can def get a larger canopy to have a longer recovery arc then a smaller canopy with a more conservative planform. (I also fly a Bullet 14m ~150sq ft that has a recovery arc that rides on rails).

I guess the question becomes whats dangerous to us new skydivers, a long recovery arc or a quick low turn to avoid, traffic/object etc on a twitchier canopy

C. Some reasons for differences in performance between large and small
canopies:
1. Turns: In general, the smaller the canopy, the shorter the lines. Its true that
two proportionally scaled canopies may have similar full glide speed at the
same wing loadings, but they turn very differently. The big canopy, with its
long lines, has relatively sluggish reaction to the controls, and the small
canopy has relatively quick reaction to the controls. This is due to the fact
that the large canopy must move the jumper a much greater distance out to
the side, in order to achieve a certain bank angle needed for any given turn
rate. This means that the smaller version of a canopy will feel much more
agile, even if flown at the same wing loading.
2. Flaring: A dynamic flare is one that results in a change in flight direction
from a descending path to one parallel with the ground. This requires a
change in the angle of the canopy, when viewed from the side. (Initially, the
amount of the angle change is about equal to the angular change of the flight
path.) This angle change is accomplished using toggle a movement that
causes the jumper to move out in front of his natural hanging place under the
canopy. The long lines of a big canopy require the jumper to be moved a
greater distance out in front to achieve the same angle. Shorter lines mean
that the jumper doesn’t need to move as great a distance forward to achieve
the same angle. This means the toggle movement must be more aggressive
on the larger canopy, compared to the smaller canopy, even at the same
wing loading.
3. For similar reasons to those above, the smaller canopy will also dive more in
hard turns, when compared to a larger scaled canopy, even when flown at
the same wing loading.



II. General Concepts that are frequently misunderstood
A. Different canopy models of the same size may perform differently, but they will
fly approximately the same speed.
Wing loading is the biggest determinant of speed. A Stiletto 190 is not really faster
than a Sabre 190, or even a PD 190! Other aspects of performance will be different,
however. (Turn rate, glide angle, etc.) These differences may influence a person’s
impression of speed.

[danielshadwick 0]

Well after posting this thread someone contacted me about a 2008 Safire 2 with 50 jumps on it!!!! It's even the same color as my container. I can't wait to fly it. Thanks for all the info!

[mjosparky 4]

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yeah exactly what I mean. In my experience size first then planform. So a Sabre 150 is going to dive a lot more then a CF 170. Obviously a CF 170 whill dive more then a sabre2/pilot/safire 170.

You are so cool, can I be on your ash dive?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[erdnarob 1]

I recommend you the Sabre 2-170. I am heavier than you and have jumped it for almost 400 jumps. Put few hundred jumps on such a canopy before going to a fully elliptical like the Crossfire. Now I made a demo jump on a Pulse 170, it's a very nice canopy with soft toggles pressure but it's a hybrid (zero P on the top skin only) therefore you will not get the powerful flare a Sabre 2 can give you especially when weighting 205 lbs.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

but it's a hybrid (zero P on the top skin only) therefore you will not get the powerful flare a Sabre 2 can give you especially when weighting 205 lbs.

And why would that effect the flare?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[linebckr83 3]

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In my experience size first then planform.

What experience? Looks to me like you don't really have any yet.

Not too long ago I jumped a Crossfire 190 (with mod) that was way more aggressive in both turns and recovery than the Nitron 170 I jump now. So no, that's not true at all.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[erdnarob 1]

First of all I tried it and saw the difference right away. It happened at the 2009 Summerfest at Skydive Chicago last year. That could be explained by the fact that the lower skin being the low porosity new Optimum fabric, the Pulse is slower (more drag) or less slippery in the air and therefore that feature decreases the efficiency of the flare. I only made one jump on it but I didn't find it was a canopy for heavier jumpers. I have jumped the Sabre 2 and now a Katana and I can say the Katana has about the same flare than the Sabre 2. On the other hand the Pulse has a very shallow pitch angle which makes it slower in normal mode. However I like very much the lightness feeling of the Pulse with low toggles pressure. I would recommend it for people who have less force in the upper body (shoulders, arms...) and who are relatively light.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[buff 0]

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I weigh the same exact as you and my first canopy was a spectre 190 as well. Made the transition to CF2 169.

Brilliant!

I better jump on that Comp Cobalt 95 that Moffett has up in the classifieds. Hell, for $800 I could be taking down gates with the best of them next week. Can I get into ElyJs canopy course this Wednesday?

It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama