A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"?

[Sttucker13 0]

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But hey, once you have 2500 does any of that really matter?

When you've got 20 jumps now and are either 9 jumps or 19 jumps (depending on the ruling) away from your A -- it matters quite a bit. ;)

Took me forever to get my clear-and-pulls down (14 IADs anyone?), now I'm 20 jumps down and making decent progress. I could conceivably have my A if I ace the next 9 dives in a row. Now, I'm a slow learner so I'm not betting the house on it - but it's nice to think positive. I'd hate to ace nine jumps for a total of 29 skydives and then realize I needed another 10 self-deployments to get A qualified. :)

[Sttucker13 0]

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Yes, I do 'get' the irony.

ltdiver

Didn't mean anything by it, just wasn't sure you were answering the question he was asking. :) My mistake.

[labrys 0]

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Maybe it's just me but I feel that an instructor SHOULD know what is required, not only for the proficiency card, but the BSR's and what a student needs to become a skydiver... including requirements for an A license.

Instructors do not assign or approve licenses. They instruct and sign off proficiency requirements for licenses. Any one instructor could sign off every single item on an A license card but they can't approve the actual license. An instructor can't verify that "25 jumps" have been completed to the USPA's satisfaction.

Owned by Remi #?

[ltdiver 3]

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Took me forever to get my clear-and-pulls down (14 IADs anyone?)

So were they clear and pulls (no help from the instructor) or IAD's?

Also, bravo for sticking with it! You'll be an inspiration for those who come after you. You'll be able to sit them down and let them know it's not all lost, just because they aren't perfect the first time around. IMO it's the people who have to work to achieve that goal and hold it more precious than those who just breeze through life.

For personal inspiration take a read what one of our current BOD members went through when -she- started...Too Scared to Jump

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[yamtx73 0]

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Maybe it's just me but I feel that an instructor SHOULD know what is required, not only for the proficiency card, but the BSR's and what a student needs to become a skydiver... including requirements for an A license.

Instructors do not assign or approve licenses. They instruct and sign off proficiency requirements for licenses. Any one instructor could sign off every single item on an A license card but they can't approve the actual license. An instructor can't verify that "25 jumps" have been completed to the USPA's satisfaction.

I didn't say they assign or approve licenses, but that they should know what the requirements are. They should know what counts towards a student's A license so you don't have a student wondering if their ISP or static line jumps count towards their license.
It's up to the student to make sure they do their required 25 jumps and have their proficiency card signed.

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[Sttucker13 0]

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So were they clear and pulls (no help from the instructor) or IAD's?

ltdiver

My first clear and pull was my 14th jump. I kept hosing on the "2 consecutive, satisfactory practice clear-and-pulls". I would pass the first one, then go flailing on the follow-up. ;) Now that I'm getting out on my own though - it's gone from "God, another IAD" to "Thank God, I get to go up!"

Thanks, gonna go give that link a read.

[ltdiver 3]

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When you've got 20 jumps now and are either 9 jumps or 19 jumps (depending on the ruling) away from your A -- it matters quite a bit. ;)

Well, I thought of e-mailing USPA and waiting for a reply tomorrow morning...However I did a search here on these forums and found this. You might find it interesting. You're not the first student to be confounded by your question.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1023205;search_string=static%20line%20A%20License;#1023205

Now add to that Military S/L questions....

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[diablopilot 2]

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An instructor can't verify that "25 jumps" have been completed to the USPA's satisfaction.

Yes. They can. That's why we are permitted to sign off the card, administer the "A" license test and stamp the card, granting the applicant an "A" license.

Now if they want a number to go with that, they contact the USPA HQ.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Sttucker13 0]

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When you've got 20 jumps now and are either 9 jumps or 19 jumps (depending on the ruling) away from your A -- it matters quite a bit. ;)

Well, I thought of e-mailing USPA and waiting for a reply tomorrow morning...However I did a search here on these forums and found this. You might find it interesting. You're not the first student to be confounded by your question.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1023205;search_string=static%20line%20A%20License;#1023205

Now add to that Military S/L questions....

ltdiver

To add a further notch of complexity I was informed by one of our instructors that in prior SIMS the military Static Line jumps were not counted and that it has flip-flopped over the course of a few SIM revisions. You would think a simple two or three line paragraph could be added to the SIM to clarify this exact issue. The fact that such an entry DOESNT exist in the SIM makes me believe that the phrase "25 Jumps" is intended to be taken at exactly it's face value, despite any misgivings or prior SIM instructions.

[ltdiver 3]

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When you've got 20 jumps now and are either 9 jumps or 19 jumps (depending on the ruling) away from your A -- it matters quite a bit. ;)

Well, I thought of e-mailing USPA and waiting for a reply tomorrow morning...However I did a search here on these forums and found this. You might find it interesting. You're not the first student to be confounded by your question.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1023205;search_string=static%20line%20A%20License;#1023205

Now add to that Military S/L questions....

ltdiver

To add a further notch of complexity I was informed by one of our instructors that in prior SIMS the military Static Line jumps were not counted and that it has flip-flopped over the course of a few SIM revisions. You would think a simple two or three line paragraph could be added to the SIM to clarify this exact issue. The fact that such an entry DOESNT exist in the SIM makes me believe that the phrase "25 Jumps" is intended to be taken at exactly it's face value, despite any misgivings or prior SIM instructions.

So the military guy in that thread (the one that had 125 S/L jumps from 800 feet) would be more than 1/2 way to his "C License"....

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Sttucker13 0]

Yeah - but then again I'd say go ahead and give it to him too - assuming the man learns to fly, anyone that can survive 125 PLFs from 800 feet under a round deserves a medal, not just a rating. ;)

[jakee 1,489]

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SIM: 3.1-C Pay particular attention to C-5. Must include freefall time. S/L and IAD do not include freefall time. Clear and Pulls do...at least 1 second. :^)

Poor interpretation. It says the freefall time must be logged. It does not say the value logged needs to be greater than zero.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[BIGUN 1,303]

For the A License, the SIM segregates the requirements for the A License from other licenses as:

must have-
a. completed 25 jumps
b. completed all requirements listed on the USPA A License Proficiency Card
c. completed five group freefall skydives involving at least two participants
d. received the signature and official stamp on the USPA A License Proficiency Card or USPA A License Progression Card (ISP)

Source: http://uspa.org/publications/SIM/2008SIM/section3.htm Section E.A.1

With the ISP, even a non-working 1st tandem satisfies the requirement for "Orientation to Skydiving" as part of Category A. The intent of the A License is for one to have, a) completed all the categories, b) completion of the A license proficiency card, and c) a minimum of 25 jumps.

If A only: no license.
If B only: no license.
If C only: no license.
If A & B: no license.
If A & C: no license.
If B & C: no license.
A + B + C = "A" license.

Example: If one completes A & B, but has yet to complete 25 jumps (which happens at turbine DZ's more often), then they cannot submit for the license. If one completes A & C, but has yet to complete their proficiency card (which happens at 182 DZs more often)...

For S/L & IAD students, they can submit a zero (0) in freefall time portion of their logbook for the S/L, IAD jumps, but in having met the tenets for A, B, & C; then they can apply for an A license.

The source ltdiver cites is the requisite freefall time for advanced licenses B, C & D and instructional ratings... In your logbook it has total freefall time. All the zero's do not count towards advanced licenses or ratings for total freefall time.

As to military S/L jumps as referenced in the hyperlink; can be entered into the logbook for total number of jumps and therefore bragging rights only, but do not count towards ratings or licenses as the criteria explained to me was they were exits less than the opening altitudes established by the USPA (and the person at USPA that explained it was a former military jumper himself).

Base jumps count towards your BASE number as they were not intentional exits from an aircraft and do not count towards advanced USPA licenses or instructional ratings.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[kkeenan 14]

Someone logging a tandem (passenger) jump is like a pilot logging time spent in the back of an airliner. It's ridiculous, in my opinion.

Kevin K.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[billvon 2,990]

>Must include freefall time.

Hmm. So do tandems count their drougefall as a jump?

[shaark 0]

What a fun thread. It really deserves lubrication with lots of beers. (With all due respect to Sstucker13.)
Lets see ----
So you do a s/l, but you have a mal, and the rsl fails ---
The group Mister Bills with the large s/l cargo 'chute --- I'd love to do that --- ( and is it r/w if you hold hands?)
And what about those poor WW2 Russian s.o.b.s that sat in straw lined boxes and got chucked into snow drifts.
The WW2 tail gunner. He absolutely intended to jump. The aircraft was on fire. So was his parachute when he went to get it. He jumped anyway from the best part of 18,000'. Survived with only a broken arm. The Germans were very impressed.
And what is "an aircraft in flight"? Can I log the jump if the aircraft was stalled when I left?
Do rockets count?
What about kites?
Base jump holding a paper 'plane? Remember to let it go before pitching or it's not a skydive.

I know. We need the FAA to help figure this out.

[fcajump 164]

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Someone logging a tandem (passenger) jump is like a pilot logging time spent in the back of an airliner. It's ridiculous, in my opinion.

Kevin K.

Depends on the instructor...
I would suggest that it is more like a pilot logging time spent in the right seat with instructor in the left... Some will log time simply looking at the controls, and some will log time actively flying with the instructor observing and teaching... What you get out, depends on what you (and the instructor) put in to it...

I prefer tandem "STUDENTS" to tandem "passengers."

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[ltdiver 3]

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>Must include freefall time.

Hmm. So do tandems count their drougefall as a jump?

See Post 18 of this thread.
ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[ltdiver 3]

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SIM: 3.1-C Pay particular attention to C-5. Must include freefall time. S/L and IAD do not include freefall time. Clear and Pulls do...at least 1 second. :^)

Poor interpretation. It says the freefall time must be logged. It does not say the value logged needs to be greater than zero.

I think you got stuck part way through the thread.... Keep reading.
It appears that the USPA has changed its mind over the years. I don't consider myself and 'oldie' yet, but 12 years ago...when I took my "A License", the SIM considered only freefall as a skydive and thus you couldn't include S/L toward your jump number. Not sure of the exact date change, but yes it appears to be the later version of 'including everything' counts towards your "A".

I like the interpretation that BIGUN gave, however. In the B License onward you have to count your freefall time, thus S/L and IAD won't count towards that part. Thanks for the clarification, Mr Anvil. :^)

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[peek 21]

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Someone logging a tandem (passenger) jump is like a pilot logging time spent in the back of an airliner. It's ridiculous, in my opinion.

For a carnival ride Tandem I would not disagree. But we are giving Tandem students the benefit of the doubt that they have an instructor that is teaching them how to skydive.

From the posts I have read around here I think quite a few tandem students are receiving pretty good instruction.

I don't think it is a bad thing. To receive a license, a student skydiver needs to meet skill requirements anyway.

A question for everyone is why we require a certain number of jumps for a license at all. Isn't meeting skill requirements enough?

[MakeItHappen 15]

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...It appears that the USPA has changed its mind over the years. I don't consider myself and 'oldie' yet, but 12 years ago...when I took my "A License", the SIM considered only freefall as a skydive and thus you couldn't include S/L toward your jump number. Not sure of the exact date change, but yes it appears to be the later version of 'including everything' counts towards your "A".

Just when you thought things were clear….

Many moons ago SL and tandem did NOT count towards your licenses.

Today they (S/L & Tandem) do count, as well as IAD, towards the # of jumps requirement for each license.

This change happened at approximately the same time the definition of a student was changed from ‘cleared for self-supervision’ to ‘obtain an A license’. c 1999.

Now, a sharp jumper may ask, ‘Gee, why was that?’

The answer lies in the marketing of student training programs and the influence DZOs have on USPA policy.

At the end of the 90s, some DZOs had an extended student training program that ranged from 15 to 20-ish jumps – no matter what training method or more often hybrid training method they used.
Other DZs advertised the 7 level AFF training program.

The DZs with the longer progression methods (long in terms of number of jumps) complained loudly to USPA and said something to the effect “Hey my hybrid program is safer and educates the jumper better than the conventional AFF 7-level program, but customers go to the DZ with the 7-level program because all they see is that they get to be ‘free’ of training within 7 jumps as opposed to 20ish jumps.”

So the definition of ‘student’ jumper was changed to be ‘obtained an A license’.

The complaining DZOs were happy because no one could claim that they got students licensed in fewer jumps that another DZ with a different program.

Or so they thought – at first.

The next DZO whining that came was about S/L and tandem jumps not counted towards the A license. “That was totally unfair.”

So USPA changed the rules, once again, under pressure from DZOs, to make the marketing aspect of the various training methods essentially equal.

That’s how the rules came about and you can verify dates and such by reading the USPA minutes from 1998-present day.

One thing to note is that the FF and # jumps awards do NOT count S/L or IAD, but they do count tandem.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[dragon2 2]

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Someone logging a tandem (passenger) jump is like a pilot logging time spent in the back of an airliner. It's ridiculous, in my opinion.

Kevin K.

I logged all my tandems, most of which were instructor recurrency jumps, newbie instructor jumps and new/changed rig jumps. I pulled myself on one of those jumps LOL

OTOH, our A-license specifically counts only freefall jumps, no SL, so the 3 SL jumps I did on my first day of jumping didn't count towards my A-license but my subsequent 2 tandems (funjump that night onto a beach/party and back at the DZ the day after) DID

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Broke 0]

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SKYDIVE: 1. n. The descent of a person to the surface from an aircraft in flight when he or she uses or intends to use a parachute during all or part of that descent. 2. v. To jump form an aircraft with a parachute.

Says nothing about freefall. Just someone who uses a parachute to get down from a plane

http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2008SIM/glossary.htm#s

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[pilotdave 0]

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One thing to note is that the FF and # jumps awards do NOT count S/L or IAD, but they do count tandem.

That makes sense since those are specifically freefall awards... (though freefall time as a tandem passenger is pushing it a bit, IMO).

"1. Expert Wings are awarded for freefall skydives in 1,000-jump increments.

2. Freefall Badges are awarded for freefall time in 12-hour increments."

Dave

[ltdiver 3]

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So the definition of ‘student’ jumper was changed to be ‘obtained an A license’.

The complaining DZOs were happy because no one could claim that they got students licensed in fewer jumps that another DZ with a different program.

Or so they thought – at first.

The next DZO whining that came was about S/L and tandem jumps not counted towards the A license. “That was totally unfair.”

So USPA changed the rules, once again, under pressure from DZOs, to make the marketing aspect of the various training methods essentially equal.

Who says whining doesn't get you anywhere....

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon