A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"?

[livendive 8]

All jumps count. The requirement used to be 20 freefalls, but it was changed several years ago to 25 jumps. In a normal S/L or IAD progression, they work out to the same (two simple exits, three practice pulls).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

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So the military guy in that thread (the one that had 125 S/L jumps from 800 feet) would be more than 1/2 way to his "C License"....

Well, he will be when the BSRs lower minimum container openings to 800 feet.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

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Instructors do not assign or approve licenses. They instruct and sign off proficiency requirements for licenses. Any one instructor could sign off every single item on an A license card but they can't approve the actual license. An instructor can't verify that "25 jumps" have been completed to the USPA's satisfaction.

Sure we do. My students get their A-license approved via a stamp by me, right below where it says, "Official USPA A-license stamp:
This stamp and signature of a USPA Instructor or I/E, verifies that the applicant has completed all qualifications for the USPA A skydiving license and performed satisfactorily on the USPA A-license check dive. This temporary USPA A license expires with the holder’s USPA regular membership or when replaced by any registered license issued from USPA Headquarters."

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[ltdiver 3]

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So the military guy in that thread (the one that had 125 S/L jumps from 800 feet) would be more than 1/2 way to his "C License"....

Well, he will be when the BSRs lower minimum container openings to 800 feet.

Blues,
Dave

Good catch.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[livendive 8]

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Although I do believe there's a minimum amount of freefall time required for an A license, but I could be mistaken on that point.

Nope. The B license has a freefall time requirement (30 minutes). The A does not. The A does require at least 5 freefall group jumps of 2 or more, but it doesn't specify that all 25 jumps must include freefall.

5 minutes of accumulated freefall time used to be an A-license requirement. It was removed at the same time as the requirement for 20 freefalls was changed to 25 skydives.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[JohanW 0]

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***So the military guy in that thread (the one that had 125 S/L jumps from 800 feet) would be more than 1/2 way to his "C License"....[Laugh]

Well, he will be when the BSRs lower minimum container openings to 800 feet. [Wink]
I live under different rules, but would you imply that I can't log the jumps I made under American rules, where it's legal to pull at 2000', towards Dutch requirements, where it's illegal to pull under 2500' ? Maybe just those where I pulled above 2500' ?

If I pull low, can't I count the jump? Should I not log it at all, maybe? (This might actually be the smart choice. Or I could just lie about opening altitude.)

Minimum opening altitude has been upped from 2300' to 2500' 'round here at some time in the not too distant past. Oops ..

It says jumps. Arguably from an aircraft, according to the definitions.

Does it specify under whose rules they have to be made? Does it have to be a powered aircraft too? If you really, really, really badly wanted to log that BASE jump where you held the paper glider on exit, I'd let you.

Good thing I'm not an instructor.

My opinion is that S/L, IAD and freefalls, however short, count, (it's just a deployment method) and tandems do not (it's just a ride), though a point can be made about working tandems, as a student instead of a passenger, and the rules should reflect this, and it sounds like they even do. My other opinion is it's nothing that a thousand jumps won't fix. In the long run, it's moot. Get over it. Agree with the instructor you have at hand.

Oh, for the guy who has 14 IADs, I had 19 S/Ls before I started freefalling. And 11 since, the last one as my 1311th jump. I like them. I've done one instead of my 1000th freefall (and then went and made my 1000th freefall). I've done CRW and PA from a S/L. In the same jump. In competition. I personally know someone with hundreds (literally) of S/Ls. She was doing CRW with her Lightning 160 (I think). It's just a deployment system. (For her, it wasn't moot by the way, but rabid CRWdogs have problems meeting requirements anyway.)

Why oh why do we insist parachutists have to be skydivers?

Johan.
I am. I think.

[livendive 8]

It is clear on USPA license applications that the only jumps that count toward the requirements are those made in compliance with USPA's BSRs (at the time of the jump). If USPA raised the D-license container opening to 2500, my 2000' pulls would count because they were in accordance with the BSRs at that time. If I was at your DZ and was pulling at 2500', that'd also meet the requirement.

I have no idea whether the Dutch organization has a similar requirement.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[JohanW 0]

So if I forget my altimeter for a jump and decide to make it anyway, it can't count towards a requirement? (assuming there is a BSR that says you have to have an altimeter) If I forget to turn on my AAD? (assuming a functioning, turned on AAD would be mandatory, as it is in France)

Bizarre.

But at least it's clear.

(What if you break local rules but not USPA rules? )

Note to self: shut up and jump. Rules are a necessary evil, written in blood but made to be broken. But I always like to know what rules I am breaking.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[livendive 8]

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So if I forget my altimeter for a jump and decide to make it anyway, it can't count towards a requirement? (assuming there is a BSR that says you have to have an altimeter) If I forget to turn on my AAD? (assuming a functioning, turned on AAD would be mandatory, as it is in France)

Assuming you're not a student, you'd be fine without a visual altimeter except when doing an AFF jump (as an instructor). Similarly, AADs are only required for students.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[shaark 0]

Hi JohanW,
Sounds like you are a skydiver.
Jump numbers are a crude, but maybe necessary yardstick. Proficiency card is pretty good. The latest iteration of the USPA ISP is overall a lot better than what was there before.
I always figured the goal, no matter what training method/combination of training methods, is to produce a novice jumper who is able to take care of himself/herself, not be a hazard to anyone else, and absolutely realize that learning never ceases.

Who is a skydiver?
A very good friend, different country, different time, just could not hack freefall. Loved flinging himself from a plane, though. He was THE MAN in the military for rigging, and also in the sport world. Had hundreds of jumps, mostly civilian on s/l rounds, some square, some other. He would jump anything so long as the rope was there. He did a few clear and pulls, and a couple of harness hold jumps, but freefall was not for him.
Unique? Somewhat.
But most definitely a skydiver, as anyone there would insist.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck ------ quack!

[BIGUN 1,303]

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Thanks for the clarification, Mr Anvil.

Things have changed. You should have seen the ISP v.1

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[shaark 0]

Hey Sttucker13,
Sounds like you are in a great place in your skydiving career. As Itdiver comments, sticking with it is cool. Although I assume you are addicted so sticking is a given.
Go with the flow re training at your DZ. Whatever interpretation, well, so be it. While the A license is a worthwhile goal, what is most important for you is that you are jumping.
Your first dozens of jumps overall will most likely be your most memorable, most challenging, most satisfying, most mind expanding. Cherish them all. (Not a bad idea to make your log book into more of a scrap book, including thoughts, comments, photos, etc. You can only do each jump once, but memories can be forever.) I would pay a lot to re-live my first year/ first 60 jumps. Even including so very many week-ends at the DZ grounded by weather.

Blue skies

[tdog 0]

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Someone logging a tandem (passenger) jump is like a pilot logging time spent in the back of an airliner. It's ridiculous, in my opinion.

For a carnival ride Tandem I would not disagree. But we are giving Tandem students the benefit of the doubt that they have an instructor that is teaching them how to skydive.

From the posts I have read around here I think quite a few tandem students are receiving pretty good instruction.

I don't think it is a bad thing. To receive a license, a student skydiver needs to meet skill requirements anyway.

A question for everyone is why we require a certain number of jumps for a license at all. Isn't meeting skill requirements enough?

I count tandems, even carnival ride tandems. The leading cause of injury and death in our sport is canopy control and canopy awareness - not freefall. I believe even a carnival ride tandem exposes a person to a landing and an opportunity to be under canopy.

But then again, I don't really look at jump numbers when I evaluate a "student". Jump numbers say nothing. I only care if the student can be safe in freefall and under canopy, and when I have that confidence, then I look to the A licence card and 25 jump minimum as just bureaucratic procedure to keep us all on the same page, as my standards are often higher.

Proof of why jump numbers are just a hint to the big picture - I have video of someone with 17 jumps total, 5 hopnpops, so only 12 freefalls including AFF, and nearly no tunnel time, completing a 17 point 4way RW skydive where he had the outfacing slots too ("J-M-O-Q"). (The other skydivers were AFFI/Coach rated). He tracked and opened nicely, then landed on his feet in the pea gravel pit... Then quit skydiving after his 20th jump because it "did not interest him." After a few more skydives he proved to me that it was not a fluke, that he was just good. I wonder honestly if I would have signed off his card at 20 jumps...

[mark 107]

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So the military guy in that thread (the one that had 125 S/L jumps from 800 feet) would be more than 1/2 way to his "C License"....

Well, he will be when the BSRs lower minimum container openings to 800 feet.

Blues,
Dave

Good catch.

ltdiver

The BSRs permit minimum container opening altitudes of 800 feet -- or even less -- in some cases. So the military guy with 125 static line jumps really is more than half way to the jump numbers required for a C. He just has some proficiency requirements to meet.

Mark

[labrys 0]

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Sure we do. My students get their A-license approved via a stamp by me, right below where it says, "Official USPA A-license stamp:
This stamp and signature of a USPA Instructor or I/E, verifies that the applicant has completed all qualifications for the USPA A skydiving license and performed satisfactorily on the USPA A-license check dive. This temporary USPA A license expires with the holder’s USPA regular membership or when replaced by any registered license issued from USPA Headquarters."

Sorry about that. I stand very corrected.

Owned by Remi #?

[livendive 8]

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Sure we do. My students get their A-license approved via a stamp by me, right below where it says, "Official USPA A-license stamp:
This stamp and signature of a USPA Instructor or I/E, verifies that the applicant has completed all qualifications for the USPA A skydiving license and performed satisfactorily on the USPA A-license check dive. This temporary USPA A license expires with the holder’s USPA regular membership or when replaced by any registered license issued from USPA Headquarters."

Sorry about that. I stand very corrected.

No worries. I didn't mean to sound like I was biting your head off. The bold was only added because that's how it is on the card.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[labrys 0]

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No worries. I didn't mean to sound like I was biting your head off.

Ah, I didn't take your post as a "head bite" I realized in general that I was wrong about instructors being able to sign off the proficiency card for all license requirements, including jump numbers, and your post was clear about the mistake, that's all.

I make the very inconcise mistake of thinking of myself as an "instructor" wrt skydiving because in my non-skydiving life I work as an instructor at a university. I have done for almost 20 years.

In the skydiving world, I am a coach only. Not the same as an instructor and I am sorry for blurring the line in my posts.

Owned by Remi #?

[davjohns 1]

I am curious about the ruling on the military jumps. Someone provided a link to another thread that quoted a response from the USPA. That quote said that all jumps count. No qualification that it had to be within the BSRs.

While I agree that being within the BSRs would be good, I can't find where that is specified in the SIM. It isn't even something one can point to as common sense. I have an instructor who went too long attending to a student in peril and had his AAD catch him. Was that not a jump? He made no attempt to deploy his main or reserve. He deployed at 1,000ft. Military combat jumps are doctrinally 1,250ft and often are slightly above that. (Let's face it, the 50 in 1,250 is rather silly)

Now, I know this is the lawyer in me, but if all definitions are subject to some other definition, it should be stated. What I mean is, if jumps only count if conducted within all requirements of the BSRs, then it should be stated.

As I have seen 'jump' defined within this thread, the commercial airline pilot who puts passengers in emergency parachutes and throws them out the door at 500 feet has just started a skydiving school if the survivors log the jump. (I know there are probably lots of other requirements for a school and the pilot is not an instructor. Don't be tiresome about this.)

Personally, it never entered my mind to count my military jumps. Now that I have thought about it, I will probably make a note in my jump log. I made notes of my tunnel time. It is all a record of my experience. I do not, however, intend to argue that my military jumps should count towards my A license. To me, the license is a record of a milestone acheived. It is not some kind of end in itself. In this sport, the journey really is the good part.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[mark 107]

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I am curious about the ruling on the military jumps.
. . .
[If] jumps only count if conducted within all requirements of the BSRs, then it should be stated.

There is no BSR minimum altitude for military static line jumps that a skydiver counts toward a license.

Mark

[davjohns 1]

OK. That was something stated by another in the thread. I had not actually seen it. If the BSR has no such altitude requirement, I would think a plain language reading would indicate any kind of jump counts (including military).

Also, someone was kind enough to PM me about combat altitude jumps. The 800 feet is correct. The 1,250 I quoted is schoolhouse. Many thanks for that.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[skydived19006 4]

Forgive me if I’m repeating something already said, I only read 30 of the 60 responses.

I was also confused on this point a while back, so I simply emailed Jim Crouch, go figure.

I don’t think that Jim would have issue with me posting his comments, do here it is.

This message was dated April 6, 2007
Hi Martin,
Yes, it is 25 jumps period. The number of static line or tandem jumps does not matter. The Board elected to change the requirement to jump numbers rather than freefalls because the A license is earned from performance of the student, and measurable with the proficiency card. So in theory, if a student had a long enough freefall, he could complete all of the freefall training objectives in one skydive. But that is not likely to happen, and they could not complete them doing tandems or on a static line. But a jump is a jump as far as counting the numbers goes, and that also includes Military static lines from 800 feet.
Let me know if you have any other questions. I guess your season is getting ready to move into full swing. So much for a winter rest!
See you soon,
Jim

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[ceandries 0]

I agree that jump numbers are not the best way to measure skill or proficiency, and some discretion is required on the part of the instructor to determine whether the student is ready for an "A" liscense.
That being said, I still have not read a clear and concise answer to whether or not S/L jumps count toward all liscense requirements. All this talk has got me digging through my logbook and I'm wondering if I'm even qualified to be a S/L instructor (even though I hold the rating.) I have logged a total of 206 jumps but I included 10 static lines that I have done (some for initial training, some were for certification of other instructors)
The SIM says I need a "C" liscense to hold any instructor rating, and to hold a "C" liscense I need at least 200 total "jumps." So if static line jumps only count towards the "A" liscense as was mentioned before, that would mean that I only have 196 total "jumps" and I have acted as a S/L instructor illegally. Someone help me out here...

[mark 107]

The SIM says "jumps." It used to say "freefall jumps," but it doesn't say that now. Deletion of the qualifier "freefall" was intentional. A static line jump is a jump. You have more than 200 jumps, so you meet the USPA jump requirements for a static line instructor.

Cheers,
Mark