jlmiracle 7 #51 June 23, 2004 Quote Too bad it takes a serious accident for most people to get the message. It is very unfortunate. I would like to suggest a video of some of these accidents to show those that think they are the exception to the rules. When all else fails, the best we can do is scare them into making the better choices. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #52 June 23, 2004 I've been going through these theads, and it seems to me that most people are either saying, "Something should be done" or "nothing can be done." Deuce and Dom seem to be trying to propose solutions. I hate this, "It'll never work" stuff. Why not try some independent thought and come up with some ideas. There is much the skydiving community does well. In fact, since I started, I've been one safe dude. Safety is of paramount concern, and gear checks are SOP in most place. People don't often get hurt with faulty gear, though. This injury comes from someone who's gear checks out, but the consensus seems to be that he was over his head. Fuck that "there's nothing we can do" mentality. A problem is identified. Now, let's fix it. What can we do better. Despite my libertarian leanings, I think that self-regulation is needed. Wingload BSR's should be instituted. If we as skydivers don't do it, the government will. Let competing dropzones advertise it. "We subscribe to the Basic Safety Requirements for parachute size and experience. Skydive Snuffy, our competitor, does not. We value safety." See who gets the tandem cash, or who gets the AFF students. I can't think of a better idea than Dom's. I wish I could, but I don't. Someone propose another damn solution. Bill Booth saw problems. He fixed problems. I wonder how many times he was told not to waste his time. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #53 June 23, 2004 QuoteI remember Hooknswoop when he was a lot "younger" in the sport and challenging "my last nerve". I can lay claim to at least a few of those grey hairs! Thanks for your guidence. It helped. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #54 June 23, 2004 Dang ... it's interesting to see so many experts come out of the wood works on this one. No doubt my views will not mesh with others, some will disagree with me and they may even choose to flame me. Cool I say ... bring it on ... Do we want to make the USPA into a baby sitting service? How about the DZMs and DZOs? Are we to assume that everyone who shows up at the DZ without 'X' number of jumps or 'X' number of years in the sport is a baby and needs someone to look out for them? If you are in the belief that the USPA will be there to protect us all, then is there any wonder why some people have decided to leave the sport and pursue other activities or leave the sport and pursue things like BASE jumping (where there is no governing body). Is there any wonder why every summer people are getting hurt or killed under perfectly good canopies? Summer time is when everyone heads to the DZ and no doubt some people (be it egos, be it just wanting to fit in) get themselves into trouble. Swooping is fun, swooping is sexy, swooping is dangerous and thus swooping is something that many people want to do. So instead of trying to make the USPA babysit us all, how about we try to change the image of swooping from fun, sexy and dangerous to something else. How about showing swooping carnage videos to first jump students and not just showing them the video, but analysing why this was a swoop gone bad. People need to recognize and respect the dangers involved in this sport and especially in swooping. Respect is what keeps us alive and then it's much easier to appreciate the things we see talented people do under canopy. There are no easy answers ... WL BSRs may save a few people (so it's not like they are worthless), but the only way to save people is to make the people respect the dangers in what we are doing up there. Swooping is fun, it's cool to watch, but we really need to change the image of swooping as the cool thing to do to be something along the line of "yes it is fun, but the margin for error is slime, so make sure you are swooping for the right reasons and make sure you take the time to get to know everything there is to know about how the canopies you jump fly before you start hurling yourself at great velocity towards that very hard bone shattering object called Mother Earth". Baby sitting skydivers is not the answer here!!! Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taylor610 0 #55 June 23, 2004 I can lay claim to at least a few of those grey hairs! *** I am "Brown from a Bottle"! Thanks for becoming the person you did! Where are those pond swooping videos... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #56 June 23, 2004 QuoteDo we want to make the USPA into a baby sitting service? Nope. I don't want to make the FAA into one, either. Nor do I wish to make the courtroom a babysitting service. Showing the carnage videos of the "Blood Flows Red on the Highway" may be good. However, laws took over even more, because it wasn't enough. You brought up BASE. It has no governing body. But there area heluva lot of laws against the activities, like "Unauthorized Air Delivery" or trespassing. Hmm. Why is BASE such an underground activity. I don't BASE. I never have. But I'd bet my ass that if I did, there are rules I better obey and people I'd better talk to, lest the sound of sizzling enlighten fellow BASE jumpers to my activities. BASE jumpers self regulate to the tar and feather extreme, and it is effective. And BASE level self regulation may be what's needed here. Do stupid shit, you face the consequences. Bring heat on the sport, the sport brings heat on you. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #57 June 23, 2004 QuoteDang ... it's interesting to see so many experts come out of the wood works on this one. No doubt my views will not mesh with others, some will disagree with me and they may even choose to flame me. Cool I say ... bring it on ... Do we want to make the USPA into a baby sitting service? How about the DZMs and DZOs? Are we to assume that everyone who shows up at the DZ without 'X' number of jumps or 'X' number of years in the sport is a baby and needs someone to look out for them? Yes, unless proven otherwise. Go rent an airplane. You have to fly w/ a CFI for an hour to prove you can handle the aircraft before they will let you take it solo. QuoteIf you are in the belief that the USPA will be there to protect us all, then is there any wonder why some people have decided to leave the sport and pursue other activities or leave the sport and pursue things like BASE jumping (where there is no governing body). I don’t think the USPA will protect everyone. I do think it is their job to promote safety and their responsibility to do something about the low experience + small canopy = incident formula. One of the reasons I left is because USPA doesn’t do that very well. QuoteIs there any wonder why every summer people are getting hurt or killed under perfectly good canopies? Summer time is when everyone heads to the DZ and no doubt some people (be it egos, be it just wanting to fit in) get themselves into trouble. Swooping is fun, swooping is sexy, swooping is dangerous and thus swooping is something that many people want to do. So instead of trying to make the USPA babysit us all, how about we try to change the image of swooping from fun, sexy and dangerous to something else. It’ll never happen. It is what it is and we can’t change it. QuoteHow about showing swooping carnage videos to first jump students and not just showing them the video, but analysing why this was a swoop gone bad. People need to recognize and respect the dangers involved in this sport and especially in swooping. Respect is what keeps us alive and then it's much easier to appreciate the things we see talented people do under canopy. Because watching a video will not stop them from buying a canopy too small for their ability level. “I’m better than those people.” “I’ll be careful.” “I know what I’m doing.” QuoteThere are no easy answers ... Nope, there sure isn’t. But there are answers. The longer we wait before they are implemented, the more people they will be too late for. QuoteWL BSRs may save a few people (so it's not like they are worthless), but the only way to save people is to make the people respect the dangers in what we are doing up there. Swooping is fun, it's cool to watch, but we really need to change the image of swooping as the cool thing to do to be something along the line of "yes it is fun, but the margin for error is slime, so make sure you are swooping for the right reasons and make sure you take the time to get to know everything there is to know about how the canopies you jump fly before you start hurling yourself at great velocity towards that very hard bone shattering object called Mother Earth". Isn’t that the current system, which isn’t working? QuoteBaby sitting skydivers is not the answer here!!! Not baby sitting. Guidance. Training. Ensuring they survive long enough to gain the experience they need to make good choice and develop good judgement. Taylor610 was the S & TA at the DZ where I learned to skydive. One day, after previously having been warned about pulling low, I noticed an ambulance in the landing area while I was in free fall. I figured there is no way anyone is looking up, as they must be busy w/ an injury. I can get away with pulling low. So I did, pull low that is. I landed, gathered my gear and packed in the hangar, thinking I had gotten away with it. Soon after the ambulance left, Taylor610 came up to me and ‘talked’ to me about my low pull, which he had not failed to notice. It was my last warning, he told me. One more and I was grounded. So I didn’t pull low anymore. Why? Because it was dangerous? Nope. I didn’t see that at the time. Because I didn’t want to be grounded. Without that guidance the enforcing of the BSR’s, I would have continued to pull low. I refused to ensure my own safety. I didn’t know how dangerous of a situation I was putting myself in. Taylor610 had a very specific BSR that he could enforce, simple and effective. I couldn’t argue that he allowed others to pull lower or that it wasn’t unsafe or breaking a safety standard. It was right there in black and white, so any argument I could come up with was going to be weak. I have pulled low since, much lower, but I did so knowing the position I was putting myself into and with much more experience to handle any problems quicker than I ever could have before. I was one of those peole that you could talk to till you were blue in the face and you had wasted your time. Without the BSR’s and the enforcement of those BSR’s, I may not have lived long enough to make 3k+ skydives. Who would the BSR hurt? Why NOT have a WL BSR? Freedom to do whatever you want? The BSR wouldn’t take that freedom away, only ensure that you could handle the canopy you think you can handle. Want to Fly a Velocity 90 with 300 jumps? Fine, prove you can handle it and get formal canopy coaching. A WL BSR isn’t a fix-all and neither is the minimum pull altitude BSR. 2000 feet is too low for some jumper/canopy combinations. But is does set a benchmark. It doesn’t hurt anyone. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoostedXT 0 #58 June 23, 2004 Low timers do listen. I am one of them. I just recently bought all my own gear and when I was thinking of buying it I consulted Riddler, DiabloPilot, DJan, Skratch, and hand fulls of other people. I would call up gear companies just to talk to the sales person and hear what they had to say about each and every little thing. I was told by a few who have seen me land and fly that I would be happy with a 190 and I would be just fine. What did I buy? A 210. The reason? Enough people, experienced jumpers spoke to me in regards to canopy schools, and skills. I am taking a canopy course here with in the next 2 weeks just to learn more. When I did get my gear I went to see Derek and Kelli and they showed me a lot about my new stuff. The good and the bad, what to look at , and what to keep an eye on. That knowledge is irreplaceable and I will always be grateful. There ARE low time jumpers who do listen. So please.....all you experienced jumpers TALK to us, and teach us...because without you a lot of us might not make it. If all else fails I am going to get my camelback and grab Dereks 60 and jump that......... JoeFor long as you live and high you fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all that you touch and all that you see is all your life will ever be. Pedro Offers you his Protection. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #59 June 23, 2004 Quote Do we want to make the USPA into a baby sitting service? How would the USPA issuing a WL BSR be any different than them saying I can't do a night jump because I don't have a B license, that I can't pull at 2k or that DZs can't put out an AFF student in 20mph winds? I'd think a WL BSR would help DZs, because then the DZ doesn't have to be the "bad guy" when they tell someone they can't jump a certain canopy: it's just a USPA rule, not theirs, and the USPA DZ down the road will tell them the same thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kramer 0 #60 June 24, 2004 Nice post Duece. I was at a boogie this weekend. Buddy and I going up for a two-way, another guy asks if he can join us (he was wearing a camera, so of course we said "yes" ), anyway, in the plane, we introduce ourselves. He's got an Extreme-FX 120 (loaded pretty close, if not more than 2:1)...get back on the ground, find out he's got 175 jumps. I hope I don't follow in those footsteps. The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #61 June 24, 2004 Lisa, when I am thinking mail order, I'm thinking from somebody sight unseen, and of classifieds, and the kind of jumper who knows he is getting something nobody will knowingly let him have. The entire point that I am trying to make is that from all the descriptions I have heard so far, nobody is surprised that this jumper crashed. That really bugs me. I don't know why all these A-type personalities, people who care, were somehow intimidated to step up and intervene. Not just "Dude that's a bad idea" but snitching the guy off to whoever was in charge that day. I simply cannot believe that any DZO/M, if confronted with "Hey, <300 jump doofus just got on a load and he's jumping the 90 with 20 pounds of lead" is going to react by saying "Shucks, he'll probably die, but I don't want to confront him and have him and all his buddies go to (other coolio SoCal dropzone) If I'm wrong about that, somebody give me a reality check. What I suspect is that one very powerful personality vouched for this madness and everybody went along because of a hellish peer pressure not to call bullshit on whoever that powerful personality is. My whole point is to call bullshit, if you are in a position to, and if you are not, to bring the facts to whoever is in charge and politely ask to have them explain how that's OK. "Hey, DZO/M? Uh, I have 110 jumps and all, but I was wondering how a guy with <300 jumps is jumping a 2.0 hyper performance canopy wearing 20 pounds of lead?" There is simply no explanation for that situation. If the answer is "I don't know, but (powerful personality) vouches for him, so, whatever." Maybe you need to find a safer place to jump. And maybe this accident was a total fluke and the jumper was completely qualified and any swooper would have crashed in those conditions. But nobody so far has made that judgement, so I suspect it will not be true. Sorry to ruffle any individual feathers, that's not my intent. What I want is to offer my support to anybody who steps up and calls bullshit on something crazy dangerous. Skydiving dangerous. Not canopy kiting or golf-cart asphalt-surfing dangerous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #62 June 24, 2004 QuoteThe entire point that I am trying to make is that from all the descriptions I have heard so far, nobody is surprised that this jumper crashed. Confronting a Type-A personality is not an easy thing to do at work or the playground. I'm glad that nobody else got hurt, and I wish him the best of luck with his recovery. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #63 June 24, 2004 QuoteI hope I don't follow in those footsteps. You follow in those footsteps, and I'll kick your ass young man! Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #64 June 24, 2004 QuoteQuote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just remember, dude. For everyone who doesn't listen to good advice, there's dozens others who do. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are there really? I wonder sometimes I don't see it. Look in the mirror, Ron. Though you pushed the limits as you were coming up in the sport - and got the odd wake-up call for your trouble - you generally asked the advice of people whe had been around a while, and paid attention when it was given. Now that you have been around long enough to lose friends and acquaintances, and to watch the ingredients of a disaster come together time and again, you put your two cents in before someone comes to grief. You are distracted by the people who are hell-bent on destruction and maim or kill themselves in their defiance, but I assure you that there are more who pick up on the dangers cited by by those of us that have (so far) managed to survive them. On more than one occasion I have had someone come up to me and thank me for taking them aside years ago - though their ego may have been bruised at the time. Keep the message out there, and to a large extent it will sink in. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #65 June 24, 2004 QuoteLook in the mirror, Ron. Though you pushed the limits as you were coming up in the sport - and got the odd wake-up call for your trouble - you generally asked the advice of people whe had been around a while, and paid attention when it was given. Yep, what I don't understand is how is that so hard? I can think of two very big occasions where you mentored me...And I listend like my life depended on it....well it did. 1. You gave me my first HP canopy class...I had around 150 jumps and you let me jump a BT50 (A 150? sqft elliptical from France). You made me pull at 6 and drilled it into me not to turn low. 2. Doug Wolf and I were doing a Mr. Bill. I had planned on standing on his shoulders and just throwing out my pilot chute and having the canopy pull me off of him....I asked you and you said "I think thats a bad idea. You most likley will have a mal." I thought it was a great idea, and so did Doug...But I didn't do it since you thought it was a bad idea. Looking back man was that a stupid idea, but I didn't know it was stupid then. In fact, I still thought it was a great idea, but since you didn't I didn't do it. NOW I know it was stupid. QuoteOn more than one occasion I have had someone come up to me and thank me for taking them aside years ago - though their ego may have been bruised at the time. Thanks for not letting me kill myself...And you never hurt my ego."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #66 June 24, 2004 I am going to throw my two-cents into this argument and being an S&TA some of all of this really sinks home. One, is it seems this "kid" (not physical age, but skydiving age) was being tutored by one of the local "gods". It seems that even through all of this instruction, he made some bad decisions and hurt himself. Here is the problem, these "gods" are bringing an exceptional amount of added business to the DZO (which in California and Florida means the other DZ is just as easily accessible fifteen minutes away). The "god" is also respected by the DZO to be doing the right thing, he is also vouching for the guy to the DZO. So, blaming the DZO for this without thinking about all the other factors is wrong. The one the blame and wrong doing should be directed towards is the "god". How do you change this? Not allowing someone to jump becomes a very sticky situation, one I personally hate to deal with, but sometimes have to. We as skydivers need to spread the word in the community that this "god" is not all he is cut out to be. The damage in reputation needs to be put on his shoulders, not the S&TA's or the DZO's. There are plenty of people in the sport that this has happened to, look around you will see them living in the tents or old school buses at the DZ. They use to be king, but word got out that they were full of BS. Finally and for God's sake most importantly, if you are a "god" you need to respect the status that has been given to you. If you see someone who is a self-annointed "god" you need to steer people away from them. The real "gods" of this sport, never call themselves that, they are just lucky!(and they will tell you that). But, the "gods" need to shoulder their responsibility and dispense their knowledge and experience wisely! One more thing, we really need to think about what all these smaller canopies are for and realize there is a time and place for them, it is not on every jump. I personally have a 135, why, because we don't have an unlimited amount of outs at our DZ. Squeezing anything smaller into a clearing on a bad spot is an accident waiting to happen. This needs to be explained to the jumpers wanting to "downsize." Just some food for thought! By the way, if you have ever seen me land, a 135 can put on a helluva a swoop and still land crossways on the street in Jax Beach!blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #67 June 24, 2004 JP.. nice rant thread.. Bonnie.. so eloquent.. Stearman.. if you really listened, and are on an appropriate canopy for your jumps, I am one happy skydiver today. edited to add: I remember 5 or 6 weeks ago when a young jumper from down south wandered into Byron with I think 30 jumps.. He had a really raggedy container and no jumpsuit.. I did a jump with him and was impressed with his early skills.. 5 or 6 of us sat around on the floor after the beer light came on and talked to him about his goals in skydiving and gear choices.. impressing upon him that his canopy was fine but he should get a better container.. He seemed to be listening and was enthusiastic about Byron becoming his new home.. That weekend he jumped with a couple of other freefliers and they were also impressed by his freefall skills. Every once in a while, though, he kept coming back to wanting faster landings or a little swoop. There were a ton of experienced jumpers talking to him and telling him to use his existing canopy.. Bonnie, Iwan, myself and others.. But there was one guy, who doesn't really jump much, telling him he could jump a Stiletto. So... 3 weeks later, a friend from Byron says he doesn't want to know that young jumper any more and he will not get close to him. He wasn't at Byron any more and neither was the other guy.. Seems my good friend had gone to a nearby dropzone and seen the young jumper was getting canopy coaching on a Crossfire 119 from the guy who rarely jumps himself.. I am sorry that kid felt it was in his interest to switch dzs and I really hope he is going to be okay but I am proud of the Byron peeps. We have our share of hi-performance canopy pilots but our staff and the up-jumper population does what I think is a very good job of teaching a safe progression. I am also sorry that my good friend is no longer willing to extend his friendship to someone because of his poor choices.. I kind of agreed with him about saving his emotions for people that listened better. Then I read your thread and Stearman gets on here and says he listened.. Makes all that talking and sharing worth it.. I'll sit down with the next young jumper that walks in the door.. and the next.. and the next.. and so on.. cuz ya never know when you'll get through.. Just one is worth it.. chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #68 June 24, 2004 Nope. We all need each other to give a shit about each other. USPA has other roles. This one is ours as a community. It's the community that people seem to stick around for. So it's up to each and every member of the community to do their communal part. I expect to be called out when I fuck up. And you sure as shit will be hearing from me if you fuck up. But I don't want to see Johnny Law come in and set some kind of blanket laws to wrap us all up in a political cacoon. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StearmanR985 0 #69 June 24, 2004 QuoteJP.. nice rant thread.. Bonnie.. so eloquent.. Stearman.. if you really listened, and are on an appropriate canopy for your jumps, I am one happy skydiver today. Still on the ole Tri 175 baby!!! Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #70 June 25, 2004 QuoteStill on the ole Tri 175 baby!!! Yeah, and kicking ass and taking names I hear Keep it up!Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #71 June 25, 2004 QuoteThanks for not letting me kill myself...And you never hurt my ego. Ego or feelings for some of us newer people, I'm thinkin'... That's TERRIBLY important... I haven't had anyone ever 'yell' at me or make me feel bad for anything I've done or asked questions about; and perhaps some of it is because I'm female? I hope that most of it is because I have not done anything that anyone would really consider dangerous, just not as great as it could have been. I wouldn't intentionally do something dumb, or against advice, but I've made less than optimal decisions in the air or on landing. I know a thick skin is required, but I'd have a hard time if someone really laid into me about something I did wrong as I'm trying to develop skills to grow; not looking to impress anyone. I would LOVE coaching on how to be better or safer, but if I was yelled at or belittled, well, I'd get really embarrassed and upset at myself. It would take the growing part out of jumping, and become avoidance just so I don't feel stupid again. I guess for some people maybe that's necessary to TRY to help keep 'em from killing themselves; I'm just hoping that it is one of the last methods of correction used and not one of the first. Yeah, I know nobody would guess that I get embarrassed easily, but I do. (This is not directed to anyone here, just maybe a reminder to all. ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Racenic 0 #72 June 25, 2004 This thread reminds me of all the Rock stars in the last decade who have O'D' on drugs. It was the late 60's early 70's when Hendrix, Joplin and Morrison showed that being a rock star and doing lots of drugs didn't mix. Yet even today we still have people making it big in Music and doing drugs. Thinking "it can't possible happen to me!" How about people who still don't wear seat belts? Or the ones who continue to drink and drive? Or the young man who buys a 1000cc motorcycle as his first bike, only to die 3 weeks later (I know his Mom) We can coach and talk till we're blue in the face, yet some where at some time it's going to happen again. I for one would like to see some changes made. Nick Nick D The key to Immortality is- first living a life worth remembering” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #73 June 25, 2004 QuoteI haven't had anyone ever 'yell' at me or make me feel bad for anything I've done Oh, golly. I screw up so much I am really good at taking an ass-chewing. On the Holiday Boogie video, which you can purchase by clicking my sig line, , you can hear and see an excellent "Burking". One of the all-time great ones came out to see what the f*ck I was thinking when I downwinded (in about 20mph winds) at Eloy. "You gotta be smarter than that..." I was the Burkee. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #74 June 25, 2004 Yes sports fans... He lands in a cloud of DUST... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA ok now get back to work and make the Memorial Day video.. its bee three weeks already Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #75 June 25, 2004 QuoteI haven't had anyone ever 'yell' at me or make me feel bad for anything I've done or asked questions about; and perhaps some of it is because I'm female? I hope that most of it is because I have not done anything that anyone would really consider dangerous, just not as great as it could have been Maybe no one has yelled at you since you listen to the advice when given?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
