What is it with jumpers and 100-300 jumps?

[teason 0]

ahh Ron,
to put it simply they don't even know enough to know that they don't know.

My DZ is a constant battle. We lost 4 of our 6 instructors over the winter to new jobs and injuries. Now there's only 2 of us with 1000+ jumps and everyone else has under 250 jumps.
Why would they listen to us say CRW is not a good idea trying for the first time with mismatched hp canopies when their other 8 friends don't see a problem.
At that point I'm a voice in the wilderness, yanking my hair and asking back up in forums so that they can read others more experienced than they telling them they're dumb asses (sorry Kev)
It's a constant struggle for safety!
By the way, the comments in the wingloading poll help some gain new perspective!

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[billvon 2,991]

>But you have not heard any valid explanation of why it works,
> because it doesn't. Any proof that it works either has invalid
> premises or bad logic. A well-formed statement cannot be
> simultaneously true and not true, this is intrinsic.

Sure it can! Consider the following statement:

'This statement is untrue.'

But seriously, the 45 degree rule has been explained in terms that seemed completely valid to some of the best in the business. Take some other myths - the whole "the air flows faster over the wing because it's curved, so there's a vacuum" explanation of lift, and the "the plane climbs faster with the weight in the nose" explanation. Neither one is technically accurate. Yet you have to keep air flowing over the canopy to keep it from stalling, and not exceeding the rear CG of the plane may keep you alive. Not the correct explanation in either case, but it's a good thing people do them. There is value in following advice even if you think the basis is wrong.

>If only the ordinary theory of kinematics could be used to solve
>problems like riser stowage, nose rolling, bagging, &c.

Unfortunately, sometimes you just have to go with what works - and often people who have done it thousands of time have some insight into what works and what doesn't, even if they don't understand the underlying theory.

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

>But you have not heard any valid explanation of why it works,
> because it doesn't. Any proof that it works either has invalid
> premises or bad logic. A well-formed statement cannot be
> simultaneously true and not true, this is intrinsic.

Sure it can! Consider the following statement:

'This statement is untrue.'

But seriously, the 45 degree rule has been explained in terms that seemed completely valid to some of the best in the business. Take some other myths - the whole "the air flows faster over the wing because it's curved, so there's a vacuum" explanation of lift, and the "the plane climbs faster with the weight in the nose" explanation. Neither one is technically accurate. Yet you have to keep air flowing over the canopy to keep it from stalling, and not exceeding the rear CG of the plane may keep you alive. Not the correct explanation in either case, but it's a good thing people do them. There is value in following advice even if you think the basis is wrong.

>If only the ordinary theory of kinematics could be used to solve
>problems like riser stowage, nose rolling, bagging, &c.

Unfortunately, sometimes you just have to go with what works - and often people who have done it thousands of time have some insight into what works and what doesn't, even if they don't understand the underlying theory.

Apparently there are some very experienced skydivers, instructors even, who believe that waiting until the group ahead makes 45 degrees with the plane ensures a safe separation. When some theorist who doesn't live in the real world said it was dangerous, they dismissed the criticism based on their real-world experience.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[WrongWay 0]

Forgive my lateness to the thread. Here's my .02

Some are arrogant to begin with. They think they're "getting it" at this point and it pushes that level of arrogance, resulting in bull-headedness.

Some have their ego's pushed (falsely) by others that are either at their skill level or have no knowledge of the discipline of the jumper at hand. For instance, a guy with 100 jumps could stay upside down thinking he was head down, and another 100 jump chump could be like "Dude that was awesome!! You rock!!". In the same case, someone could have 1000 jumps and never flown on their head, look at that jumper, and push their ego, not knowing the danger they were presenting, and since it came from an experienced jumper (though they've never been on their head) it would give the 100 jump chump a false sense of "this is a good idea".

Some are just stupid. They think they're above everyone else (even those with 4000+ jumps) and don't think they need coaching or that they're doing anything wrong because they've been able to survive on luck for this long.

The fact is, a lot of guys think they have the skydiving world by the balls when they don't. The point is to do all you can to make these jumpers realize that this is not the case, no matter how special they think they are. I think everybody goes through a stage like this at some point, but some are just beyond the reach of others. If you can't convince them to snap out of it, and nobody else can either (or won't for whatever reason), then all I can say is have a hospital on speed dial.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[livendive 8]

I was one of those guys..."guys" being the key word. In my experience, women jumpers are MUCH less prone to the XXX-jump wonder phenomena.

I remember a very experienced jumper once telling me that he couldn't believe I was still alive and would still bet that I wouldn't make it to 500 jumps. I blew that off. I hurt myself on landing once and wrote it off as not my fault. It took a CYPRES fire at around 220 jumps to start me down the path toward a realistic perception of myself, and a couple hundred more jumps to complete that process. I really don't know if any words will break through that ego kick the way a couple major fuck-ups will, but I'm not suggesting that we should just cross our fingers and hope the fuck-ups don't maim/kill the jumpers either. I really don't have an answer but for the most part agree with the approach you seem to take here. Call them on the carpet...very hard...in public. It's better that a person be alive with thoughts that you're a complete dick than dead with no thoughts at all.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[nathaniel 0]

Quote

Consider the following statement:
'This statement is untrue.'

To be true a statement must be valid. Self-contradictions like this are not valid and therefore not true--true and false are not the only options. It takes more than satisfying the rules of grammar to construct a valid statement.

Quote

Unfortunately, sometimes you just have to go with what works - and often people who have done it thousands of time have some insight into what works and what doesn't, even if they don't understand the underlying theory.

I'm not advocating blanket rejection, I'm advocating the rejection of blanket acceptance, and I'm advocating understanding when someone rejects what otherwise could pass as good advice if it had proper foundations; to help people such as Ron answer the question that spawned this thread.

I think 100-300 jumps is when people start realizing there's shaky foundations to most of the advice out there and start exploring the possibilities.

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[teason 0]

Quote

I think 100-300 jumps is when people start realizing there's shaky foundations to most of the advice out there and start exploring the possibilities.

Don't teenagers go through a similar phase of questioning authority?
I do agree that in skydiving a lot of people have strong opinions based on a foundation of quicksand and get irate when you question them. And many cannot present a cogent argument (If I hear one more nonrigger dumbass tell me my Racer sucks...I'm gonna lose it!) but what your describing is a classic over correction of blindly adhering to whatever someone who has more jumps than you says.
Sure You may be experienced enough to sniff out the bullshit but what makes you think you can find the truth on your own. That you're ready to throw a wall between you and all those who have gone before?
Certainly question the BS (that is how you learn)but don't think for a second you can find all the answers on your own.

And for gods sake don't pick and choose the answers that only prove your opinion, listen to those who oppose you. THEY are the only ones worth listening to. That's also why I enjoyed your last post
And remember; The only thing that separates Holy writ from complete Bullshit is YOUR perspective. - my appologies to Dennis Miller for stealing his material

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[nathaniel 0]

Quote

Don't teenagers go through a similar phase of questioning authority?

This is an environment in which the only authorities are self-declared and armed with good intentions. Skydiving advice is not cops and robbers, no matter how righteous one may feel.

Quote

Sure You may be experienced enough to sniff out the bullshit but what makes you think you can find the truth on your own.

Curiousity is essential human nature, in my book anyway.

Quote

Certainly question the BS (that is how you learn)but don't think for a second you can find all the answers on your own.

Differentiating the BS from the quality material is exactly the hard part without Reason. Experience can help or it can backfire.

edit: and, it makes for a lot of the excitement. To n00bs that is. Now we're back to risk preferences.

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

If I hear one more nonrigger dumbass tell me my Racer sucks...I'm gonna lose it!

Racers are death traps! I thought everyone knew that.

I'm not a rigger and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

So, whatcha gonna do now?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[skypuppy 1]

Hmmmm. 120 jumps in 6 years... That tells me a lot.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

Quote

Quote

If I hear one more nonrigger dumbass tell me my Racer sucks...I'm gonna lose it!

Racers are death traps! I thought everyone knew that.
So, whatcha gonna do now?

-
SST = Struggle, Struggle, Thump! (I used to have one. It was a fine rig.)

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

• Quote

[teason 0]

Quote

Don't teenagers go through a similar phase of questioning authority?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is an environment in which the only authorities are self-declared and armed with good intentions. Skydiving advice is not cops and robbers, no matter how righteous one may feel.

I think the analogy is fair considering a DZ is like a family.
We can all remember be teens and thinking we knew it all.
We all remember doing dumb shit.
We all now hear ourselves sounding like our parents.

In skydiving the progression is identical. Give it few years, you'll start sounding like an uptight jumper too.
I just telling someone the other day that when I started jumping, we had to walk 5 miles to the DZ, in the snow, uphill and jumps only cost a nickel!

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[teason 0]

Quote

Racers are death traps! I thought everyone knew that.

I'm not a rigger and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

So, whatcha gonna do now?

I'm gonna pity the fool!

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

I think 100-300 jumps is when people start realizing there's shaky foundations to most of the advice out there and start exploring the possibilities.

You just keep thinking that way, and start exploring other possibilities. The advise offered here and at your own DZ comes to you free of charge. But in many cases the people offering it paid a stiff price for the knowledge gained over the years. Parachutes don't know reason from logic and have no memory. So you go ahead and re-invent the wheel. If you fuck up just a little bit, you will die. That premise you can take to the bank. If you survive 5 years in this sport look me up and I will buy you a cold one. I would be interested to know if you still feel we are a bunch of blow hards getting by on folk lore and a SWAG.
Pull Safe,
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[testpilot 0]

Excellent! I thought that statistics showed that skydivers between 250 and 1200 jumps were most prone to DGIT syndrome, it’s good to hear that I’ll know it all in the next 50 odd jumps.

Dave
D830
http://www.skydiving.co.za

[StearmanR985 0]

We are the teenagers of skydiving??

I listen, it just takes a while...

Jeff

[chaoskitty 0]

I'm with Renee on this one. I am very picky regarding who I take advice from. I'm happy to listen to any information that people want to give, because what a pain in the ass it would be to tell 99% of the people in skydiving to shut up. I just choose what to absorb and what to disregard.

This philosiphy is true in life in general.. not just in skydiving.

Have a lovely day.

[pyke 0]

What a stupid thread!!!

I have a little <300 and I know EVERYTHING!!! (there is to know about messing up!)

I'm insulted you'd even question this fact.

Look, you don't get 9" of scars, 12oz of titanium, and a whole bunch of dings and cuts by just showing up!


[this has been a message of the newbie skydiving system...had this been an actual experienced skydiver, you'd have not heard one word come out of his mouth!!!]

Seriously, just off of student status, I was told perhaps the most important thing I could have been told in my skydiving career...YOU WILL SUCK AT EVERYTHING UNTIL YOU HAVE 500 jumps...AND THEN THE LEARNING BEGINS!! Going off of that - you won't hear me say I know $HIT until well past 1500 skydives!! & I'm quite comfortable admitting that!

Kahurangi e Mahearangi,
Kiwi, RB #926, AFF-I, FAA Snr. Rigger, RN/BSN/Paramedic

[goofyjumper 0]

It is because most of them have never been hurt or they have never seen someone get hurt or worse die. They have never had a lesson to learn yet or a major scare that would set them straight.
Most of the more experienced jumpers that I have jumped with have a story or two to tell me about their past stupidness or seeing someone elses stupidness.
I pray that I never get that way, I hope someone slaps me before I get like that.

-----------------
I love and Miss you so much Honey!
Orfun #3 ~ Darla

[tspillers 0]

Why is it in this sport that people with 3000 jumps think they know it all.

Sorry, Ron, couldn't resist.

I believe this is a sport that you must constantly remind yourself how little you are.

The longer I am in the sport, the more I realize I don't know.

Todd

I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.