Casurf1978 0 #51 June 11, 2004 QuoteOh Ron, this is soooo true. . .I have seen it so many times. There was a guy this weekend (low jump numbers, high winds, already has landing issues as it is) trying to do something that was beyond his skill level. Luckily nothing happened to him but it could have been disasterous. Sometimes Egos kill people. Take heed. I always do. . .and for those of you who have given me advice, please do not stop. Hey Darci!! Yeah I agree, huge part is Ego and the refusal for some people to listen. I've also noticed that in this sport there are limits to what one can do with a given exp level. In my case at 50 odd jump wonder I will only jump with 2 others max, more than that I dont think I'm ready for. It's hard for people to realize their limitations and say "Ok that's over my head" or "maybe I shouldnt jump in these conditions" or "my canopy skills suck, I need to work on HPs instead of sit flying etc" In my view experiece, knowledge and wisdom are all related. Knowledge comes from exp (or learning from others' exp), and wisdom is applying that knowledge. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #52 June 11, 2004 QuoteTakes a degree of people skills to know how to get the point across...and after all, the goal is to get the point across, not to get the chance to vent or prove your mastery of the air. Very good point, and one I've been trying to get across. People may not like it, but you can't make someone do the things they should. Some people realize what they're doing isn't the smartest thing in the world, and is increasing their risk 100-fold, they just don't care. Until it infringes on my safety, all I can do is say "... experience has taught me that what you're doing is not a good idea" Some people are 'smart' and learn from others' experience, others not so much. Some people rely heavily on that "bag 'o luck" being pretty full.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #53 June 11, 2004 You have a very inviting avatar, Wild! ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiles 0 #54 June 11, 2004 QuoteWhat is it with jumpers with 100-300 jumps that makes some of them think they know it all? hmmm- this is simply the stage that you find out these jumpers have "attitude" (could also be referred to as "ego" but I prefer "attitude.") Some are too aggressive with their knowledge, some suppress the aggressiveness needed. They may lack confidence or have to much of it. Those jumpers with "know it all attitude" are like teenagers....they do not see distance between your level of skydiving knowledge, ability and skills...and theirs. They do not realize the learning curve that exists at this stage..re: a measure of what they already know versus what they have yet to learn. A positive learning attitude comes when a jumper realizes they have good basics to build apon- they are aggressive in their desire to learn and ask questions from those with greater ability (they recognize that there is always someone who has progressed farther than them) They know how to listen and seek understanding. They have ability to appreciate information that has been given, they also know how to say "thank you." SMiles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisL 2 #55 June 11, 2004 Quote I hope you don't take this as talking down to you...I asked this question to get input for a way to prevent people from getting hurt/killed. Do you think I am motivated by any other desire? I dont question your motives at all. Not for a single second. Its your method that I was responding to. I'm merely wanted to point out that the tone of your post might have the exact opposite effect from that which you desired. Everyone with even a slightly sensitive ego (read as everyone on earth) is going to be immediately turned off to your message in the face of feeling like you are talking down to them. Thats the low time jumpers like myself. In a very general sense, you are absolutely correct. I'm not arguing with the reality of what you are talking about. Its real. It exists. Its a problem. But I dont think you can do anything about it by alienating the people you are trying to reach If you talk about us like we arent there, which is pretty much what you were doing, you are off to a bad start right away. When you then proceed to suggest various methods of dicipline that you would use on a small child, well, all motives aside, at this point I'd say that you have probably lost your target audience. Just my opinion. My jump numbers are low but my time on the earth is significant enough to have learned a thing or two about human nature __ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #56 June 11, 2004 Hi Ron, Y'right (for some people) ... but also, what is it with people with big jump numbers that seem to forgotten what it was like to learn? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #57 June 11, 2004 Quote What is it with jumpers with 100-300 jumps that makes some of them think they know it all? I know that skydiving is an amazing sport that can bring confidence to you, but how do a few get big heads so quickly? OK, I'll bite. People that don't know any better, don't know any better. Teaching is a discipline too. The direct way of approaching people and telling them what you think they need to know or do happens to be a poorly effective methods of teaching. I'm not a teacher, but I know that one of the things that teaching does is it reveals the gaps in the teacher's own knowledge pretty quickly. I think we've seen a lot of that on this board. Most of the advice given from jumper of experience X to jumper of experience Y<=X/10 is given without good reason. It doesn't seem that jumpers of any experience level could properly justify most of the advice they give. written in blood is exactly the kind of fallacy that's currency in this sport. We're in the dark ages here. There's an intellectual component missing. We're using the words know and knowledge for what the rest of the world terms experience. Proper knowledge is scarce in this sport; what there is seems to have been derived from anecdote and personal experience. This kind of "knowledge" is not portable, like we see here pretty much the only way people have been learning is through their own experience. The reason that people don't have experience is that they don't have experience. There's no mystery here. So now what? Let's try building proper knowledge. It's not entirely foreign to this sport, consider Dr. Kallend's doctrine of exit separation. It might take a while, but I guarantee it'll be more effective. nathanielMy advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #58 June 11, 2004 QuoteQuoteTakes a degree of people skills to know how to get the point across...and after all, the goal is to get the point across, not to get the chance to vent or prove your mastery of the air. Very good point, and one I've been trying to get across. People may not like it, but you can't make someone do the things they should. Some people realize what they're doing isn't the smartest thing in the world, and is increasing their risk 100-fold, they just don't care. Until it infringes on my safety, all I can do is say "... experience has taught me that what you're doing is not a good idea" Some people are 'smart' and learn from others' experience, others not so much. Some people rely heavily on that "bag 'o luck" being pretty full. Tact. Approach. Communication. Lead by example. I think this is what you are saying, and I fully agree. Approach someone with the "hey dumbass" attitude and they will not hear a word you are saying._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #59 June 11, 2004 Speaking of his avatar . . . wildblue, do you always have to have one foot in your avatar? And I have nothing to contribute to this thread. I've gotten myself into enough trouble already complaining about other newbies. I'll just keep my mouth shut until I have 1000 jumps (yeah, right). Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #60 June 11, 2004 I'd just like to add that I like to jump with "low time" jumpers. They are more willing to "give it a try" and aren't as worried about wasting a jump ticket on a jump that might not work out as planned. "Your mother's full of stupidjuice!" My Art Project Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #61 June 11, 2004 True that. Actually completing the dive flow absolutely makes my day, but if we funnel all the way to 5000 feet, as long as nobody gets hurt (and nobody has on one of my jumps yet), I still have a blast. Accomplishing something is a plus, not a must. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lifewithoutanet 0 #62 June 11, 2004 QuoteI'd just like to add that I like to jump with "low time" jumpers. They are more willing to "give it a try" and aren't as worried about wasting a jump ticket on a jump that might not work out as planned. I'd just like to add that I've jumped w/ a lot of experienced jumpers and I've found them just as willing to give it a try w/ no concern about wasting a slot on a jump that might not work out. -C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #63 June 11, 2004 QuoteUnfortunately, part of the problem with these people is that they WON'T listen, so nothing you tell them is going to sink in. I agree with you James. I bet if you went bak and asked all the people that broke themselves and where warned before it happend, what anybody could have done or said to change thier mind. They would say nothing. All of us go through some sort of ego faze when starting. It just comes across worse with others. I think skydiving is one of those things where you can always look back and say "If I knew then, what I know now, I wouldn't have ever done that!" I look back at the things I did when I had 100 jumps and shudder at the thought that I am still alive and that I didn't take someone else out in the process. I mean here I was shooting tandem videos with less then 100 jumps, doing Crw with others that hadn't done it before either. Going from a 220 to a 160 in one step. My first night jump was an attempted 8 way. My second night jump was a demo into a football stadium (still had less then 150 jumps). I pulled people out of a formation with out telling them first. Hey, at least me and the camera man thought it was funny. I am sure there is more stupid shit I did I don't even remember. I made it though. Ignorance is bliss I guess. If I knew then what I know now I never ever would have done any of the above things at that time. I watched friends almost kill themselves doing the same things and some even succeded in paying the ultimate price for there stupid acts. I lived and I learned. Today I try and pass things on as best I can. At this point it does get very frustrating when someone is setting themselves up and won't listen to people with more experience. We have a guy at PErris right now that is IMHO downsizing way to fast and is going to end up being taken off to the hospital one day. I have had two long conversations with him about this and he still doesn't get it. I have been very poilte with him and let him know that I think he won't be around this time next year. He told me not to worry because he has a little baby girl that he loves very much and he plans on being around so she can take care of him when he is old. I feel real good about him now! (please note the scarcasm)! At least after the second conversation he broke down and bought a Cypress. I managed to get him to do that by sitting his daughter on my lap and looking him right n the eye and told him I have a very good reason for him to get one, and to chill out on the canopy stuff so fast! At least he got a little smarter! Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
damion75 0 #64 June 11, 2004 I reckon I would probably think I knew a lot more than I did but for two things: 1. a 500 jump friend of mine going in (Perris in Feb - he's doing really well and hopes to be jumping again next year) and even when lying in Hospital refusing to believe that he did anything wrong (low turn) 2. Listening on here. Not that much happens at my home DZ, but on here you get the cumulative experience / incidents etc. from what is going on at 50? 100? different DZs which is obviously a much wider view on what can go wrong. It is not the source of all wisdom, but it does make me think about things which might otherwise never have crossed my mind...*************** Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #65 June 12, 2004 QuoteSo now what? Let's try building proper knowledge. I am not sure what you mean by "proper knowledge". All the knowledge in the world was gained through experience. On thing I do know, if you don't try and learn from the mistakes of others, you will not live long enough to make them all yourself. Mistakes in skydiving are very unforgiving. I am an old man with grey hair and when I try and point something out to a newer jumper at the DZ it is not because I want to impress him with what I know. I do it because of what he/she doesn't know. They can learn it by listening or learn it by doing, in either case they will learn it. jmo SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #66 June 12, 2004 Quote All the knowledge in the world was gained through experience. Tell me then, when was the last time you felt the Pythagorean theorem? Do you really suppose astronomers have experienced the conditions on the inside of stars? Right around the dawn of recorded history mankind started building knowledge with logic and reason. This is what's missing from a lot of skydiving advice. nathanielMy advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #67 June 12, 2004 It's simply called the 'teenage years'. If they live through it, they'll realize they don't know much...and then be willing to learn (again). ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #68 June 12, 2004 When I was in roughly the 100-300 jump range, I was the guy at the drop zone who would try anything (and I mean ANYTHING). From a no-moon night cross country with less than 100 jumps to skysurfing out of a Cessna on a homemade board with about 150 jumps and no formal training to jumping a Korean War vintage "sport" rig to a "Double Mr. Bill" (I was actually prevented from doing this one by the DZO), I was ready to do it. I was jumping at an old school drop zone (which I still have a strong fondness for, so if anyone from there is reading this, don't take it the wrong way) that still operated under the notion that anybody with 100 jumps was an experienced skydiver who could do pretty much whatever they wanted, so there weren't many times when I was told I couldn't do something. Some of the stuff I tried worked out really well, and other stuff less well. Fortunately, nothing turned out really bad. I think things started turning around for me when I came a hair's breadth away from femuring on a 180 degree hook turn under a Sabre 150 on my 249th jump (whatever brains I had were hanging between my legs). I hobbled away from that on a sprained ankle, and a month later I moved to a new city and a new DZ. When my old friends jump with me now, they always comment on how much less gung-ho I am. The added responsibility of instructional ratings, plus the memory of almost becoming a statistic, plus the few times since then that somebody has had to call me on a bad idea (building a big round around my skysurfing board with 100-jump wonders probably wasn't the best idea), has really brought me into touch with reality. This is a serious sport. There seems to be a gap between the time we loose the initial fear of it and the time when we gain a real respect for it. That's the danger zone. That's where so many of us make really bad decisions. It's doubly bad for younger jumpers who may not yet grasp the whole "decisions have consequences" aspect of life. Sometimes a few private words is all it takes to set somebody on the right path, and sometimes it requires a swift kick in the pants or a rap on the back of the head. Just do whatever it takes. --DouvaI don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #69 June 12, 2004 QuoteDo you really suppose astronomers have experienced the conditions on the inside of stars? No, and that is why it is called theory, not fact. If you fail to see the reason and logic in some skydiving advice could that be due to your lack of knowledge? With limited experience how could you tell if the given advise lacked reason and logic? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BASE813 0 #70 June 12, 2004 QuoteAbout the 100-300 jump thing, it's a phase....we all went thru it.....one way or the other. this is true Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #71 June 12, 2004 Quote With limited experience how could you tell if the given advise lacked reason and logic? Reason doesn't tell you off the bat whether people have just got their premises wrong... One of the hallmarks of the weakness of skydiving advice is that the premises generally aren't even stated... Fortunately (unfortunately?) we don't get into the gray area of premises most of the time because the reasoning is bad. Reason is the same in every discipline, and the same fallacies have a tendency to keep popping up. You don't need to know much about the particulars of a subject to observe when the rules of logic aren't being strictly obeyed. This is the power of Reason. nathanielMy advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flailchick 0 #72 June 12, 2004 Ron, I've enjoyed the exchange that this post initiated. Whether folks want to admit it or not, the 100 - 300 jump wonder is a very real phenomenon at every dz in our sport. After 21 years in this sport, 17 of them as an instructor (and I'm a baby skydiver compared to some of you guys...) I've seen it over and over again. I once saw an S&TA hand a blank fatality report form to the current 300 jump wonder. Boy Wonder was told to fill out the pertinant details, and that we would just date the report later. The S&TA said that it would be alot easier on himself, because he hates having to get that personal information about his friends after they've bounced. BoyWonder actually straightened up for a while. I think he had about 800 jumps when a new fatatily report was completed on him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #73 June 12, 2004 QuoteQuote With limited experience how could you tell if the given advise lacked reason and logic? Reason doesn't tell you off the bat whether people have just got their premises wrong... One of the hallmarks of the weakness of skydiving advice is that the premises generally aren't even stated... Fortunately (unfortunately?) we don't get into the gray area of premises most of the time because the reasoning is bad. Reason is the same in every discipline, and the same fallacies have a tendency to keep popping up. You don't need to know much about the particulars of a subject to observe when the rules of logic aren't being strictly obeyed. This is the power of Reason. nathaniel If you do not know the subject how can tell if the premises are wrong? Can you site a specific? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #74 June 12, 2004 Quote What is it with jumpers with 100-300 jumps that makes some of them think they know it all? Dunno, I'll let you know in 9 jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #75 June 13, 2004 Quote If you do not know the subject how can tell if the premises are wrong? Can you site a specific? It's the definition of premises that in the application of reason they are taken for given. So, I'm really failing to grasp what you are talking about. from AHD: SYLLABICATION: prem·ise PRONUNCIATION: prms NOUN: also prem·iss ( prms) 1. A proposition upon which an argument is based or from which a conclusion is drawn. 2. Logic a. One of the propositions in a deductive argument. b. Either the major or the minor proposition of a syllogism, from which the conclusion is drawn. edit to add: IOW, to reason about premises you first have to stop taking them as premises. Otherwise it's circular reasoning... Practically all the skydiving advice I've received and overheard didn't come with premises anyway, or begged the question. nathanielMy advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites