Clouds make spotting impossible

[DeepC 0]

I am training for my "A" license. I am through AFF and am currently making solo jumps. On my 12th jump there was some pretty hefty cloud cover about 5500' preventing me from spotting the dropzone. Everyone in front of me exited including an instructor with a student jumped even though the dropzone was not visible, so I exited also. I did not see the dropzone until just before my deployment of 5000'. I made it back and landed safely, but I thought this was against the rules. I could not spot before exit, and I freefell through clouds. I did it because everyone including the instructors did. But should I have jumped in this case? If not would I get a refund if I rode the plane back?

[AggieDave 6]

It depends on where you are. In the US you have to abide by the cloud clearances set out in the FAR and reposted in the SIM.

As far as a refund for riding the plane down, well, that's up to the DZ. You got on the plane and you knew the weather before taking off and the money was spent in fuel and pilot.

If I gamble a lift ticket with weather, I'll eat that ticket's price if I ride the plane down. If something else happens such as aircraft or pilot issues, then I expect the DZ to incur that cost. That's just my rule of thumb on jump tickets.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[stratostar 5]

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I did it because everyone including the instructors did.

If everyone else was playing russian roulette with a full clip, you would play too?

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But should I have jumped in this case?

Most likey no. But hard to say without being there to look out the door.

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If not would I get a refund if I rode the plane back?

Depends on the dzo. Chances are slim you would.

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but I thought this was against the rules.

In the USA it is. Do a search on the B-25 load and Lake Erie in the early 70's and you will see that the choice to jump above solid layers cost a whole load of jumpers their lifes. However the two who stayed in the AC lived to play again.

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so I exited also. I did not see the dropzone until just before my deployment of 5000'.

I bet you didn;t see any of those who were in front of you.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[kkeenan 14]

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If everyone else was playing russian roulet with a full clip, you would play too?

Yeah. That's only safe with one round in the clip.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[stratostar 5]

Full clips weed out the losers faster.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[rushmc 23]

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Full clips weed out the losers faster.

OOohhhhhh, I get it..... Ok, you can go first


Last one alive wins????

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[MarkM 0]

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I did it because everyone including the instructors did. But should I have jumped in this case? If not would I get a refund if I rode the plane back?

If something goes wrong you have to live with the consequences, so you shouldn't always act based on how other people act.

If the clouds look iffy while you're on the ground and you don't want to ride the plane down because of them and lose your jump ticket, don't go up in the first place.

If you can't see where the DZ is on the spot and you're not willing to risk landing out, then don't jump out. You know what the area is like around the DZ. You also know your own canopy landing skill. Maybe that 2000 jump instructor just isn't concerned with landing 2 miles out in a small field and hitching a ride back. At 12 jumps you should be.

You're off AFF now. Ideally these jumpers should be looking out for you and should've pointed stuff out for you on this load or told you to stay behind. But you also need to start seeking answers of your own for stuff like this. Ask around, keep learning, keep thinking about "what ifs" and know that you need to become your own safety net that says "Maybe this isn't a good idea".

[pilotdave 0]

If you don't know where you are when you get to the door, it's a bad idea to exit. You could be perfectly legal (cloud clearance requirements) and still have clouds blocking your view of the dropzone. As you get more experience, you will learn other landmarks around your dropzone that you can use to know where you are so you don't necessarily need to see the dropzone to get your bearings. But leaving the plane without knowing where you are in relation to the dropzone is always a bad idea. Getting out when you know you'll be going through clouds is a much worse idea, and illegal. But in reality, some dropzones do it all the time. Been to a bunch of dropzones that will happily put jumpers out over solid overcast layers.

Dave

[tombuch 0]

Welcome to the sport. I'm impressed that you are trying to research something you are not sure of.

The short answer is that you should not have jumped through the cloud, but as you saw, there are some drop zones where regulations are ignored. In some cases a DZ will refund your money if you don't jump, but in others it will not...that's a DZ specific policy.

Pilots have a fundamental right to fly over your drop zone below the clouds, and you as a jumper are prohibited from creating a hazard. Thus, you must make sure there are no airplanes below or within the clouds, something you really can't do without radar vision. While most pilots (myself included) will try to avoid overflying a known drop zone, it still remains the jumpers responsibility to ensure the airspace is clear before exit.

Since you are just starting out, I'll assume you are not familiar with all the available resources, and I'll share a feature I wrote for The Ranch web site when I was S&TA. The article is about jumping through clouds, and although it relates specifically to The Ranch, there is plenty of applicable take away information for other drop zones too. Find it listed as "Article 19, Jumping Through Clouds" at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php

Other relevant articles available on that site include "Article 1, Checking For Traffic" and "Article 13, FAA Regulations Applied."

I suggest you consider the other information posted in this thread and on this site. You will probably find different viewpoints, and different levels of risk tolerance. When you have a chance, chat with your instructor, the S&TA, or drop zone owner about the way regulations are interpreted at your DZ, and the level of risk this places on the jumpers and other airspace users such as transient pilots. If you like, go ahead and print out any of the posts or articles you have questions about and share those with your instructor.

Blue skies,

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[DanG 1]

Another issue that you might want to consider is the fact that you were unsupervised in the plane and forced to make that decision yourself. At most dropzones it is standard to have a rating holder supervise all non-licensed jumpers up to and including exit. In other words, at many dropzones you would have been able to turn to a more experienced jumper and say, "What should I do?" (not implying that you'll always get the right answer, but at least you should have the chance to ask). If you are uncomfortable with being left unassisted in the plane, let your instructor know.

I'm not harshing on your DZ. Everyone does things a little differently, but it seems to me a bad idea to have students (self-supervised or not) spotting for themselves in even the best conditions.

- Dan G

[timbarrett 0]

just my 10c worth but I think that your questions, while seemingly on a specific topic, merit much more focus...
the issue I believe you are touching on is how in this sport we learn to take responsibility for ourselves. How do we build both sufficient experience and confidence that we can make decisions such as not to jump? It is incredibly easy - in my experience - to adopt the mentality that allows you to go along with what eveyone else is doing, despite any misgivings you might have, on the assumption that a) the others don't seem to be worried and b) it will "probably" be alright (because most mistakes are not really punished). I followed someone out the door at about your stage for much the same reasons and got to enjoy my first off-DZ landing...

The only advice I can give on this currently is firstly to have thought about as many situations as you can ahead of time and have some sense of your own "rules" as this makes it easier to stick to them rather than succumbing to the pressure of the moment (eg the wind is gusting over X, I am off the load, no questions). I have never heard anyone given grief for having that approach. Secondly- and much harder- is to understand that no-one asked you to do this, most of your whuffo friends probably told you not to, and therefore you are responsible for your own decisions..and your own life. That's what is so great about this sport and what the mass of lawyered-up, risk-averse citizenry don't understand. This freedom comes with a price and you are asking the right questions to learn how to exercise it as safely as possible.
Enjoy the responsibility...

"Work hard, play hard and don't whinge"

[DeepC 0]

Many of you have had some good advice, and posted some good links--Thank-You.

I would just like to add a little more info about the jump. Some of you said I shouldn't have gone up if I was unsure about the cloud cover. I didn't.

I live on the Gulfcoast of Florida where we have a saying: "If you don't like the weather wait five minutes..." Those of you familiar with sub-tropical weather know that isn't a joke. During the spring and summer months we experience fast radical weather changes especially in the afternoon. Many times there is no predicting it, and you never see it coming. We lose quite a few boaters every year to fast moving violent squalls.

The clouds and wind were acceptable when I left the ground, and in the short fifteen minute flight to altitude they changed.

I had originally planned on making another jump, but chose not to due to the cloud cover and gusty winds.

[rehmwa 2]

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If not would I get a refund if I rode the plane back?

You don't pay for the skydive. You are paying for the airplane ride. (It's a "lift" ticket, not a 'jump' ticket)

Had you rode back down. You still got the ride you paid for.

Decisions to bump from the load should occur on the ground. If you have to ride back down, then it's up to the DZ on whether they comp back any of the lift price. They certainly don't have to, but some might out of the goodness of their hearts (or as a goodwill business strategy).

When the plane has to come back down, I certainly expect the DZ to only charge for the altitude they obtained - If we come down due to rain at 3000 ft, I only expect pay for a hop and pop, not full altitude.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Jumpah 0]

Your post is unclear if you were alone in the plane with no supervision from an appropriate rating holder. At my DZ I'm often asked to "keep an eye" on soloists working for their A (I have a coach rating). This means gear checks, spotting, etc. It also means that if we were in a situation where the plane is going to land with any one of them still on board I'd ride it down with them, even if I could turn the jump into a hop and pop. One exception to this would be if there was an AFF instructor on board riding down with their student who agrees to watch my students as well; then I'll do the hop and pop.

Maybe I'm too careful, but you should have been told to stay put. Don't be afraid to ask a qualified person.

If you made the decision to get on the plane don't expect a refund. If an instructor made the decision of load you are going on I think it should be reimbursed.

[rehmwa 2]

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If an instructor made the decision of load you are going on I think it should be reimbursed.

that's a good exception to my note

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,027]

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While most pilots (myself included) will try to avoid overflying a known drop zone, it still remains the jumpers responsibility to ensure the airspace is clear before exit.

,

The pertinent word here is "known". Non-local transient pilots are unlikely to know there's a DZ there, and these days most pilots are using GPS navigation and none of the GPS databases show drop zones.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Butters 0]

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The pertinent word here is "known". Non-local transient pilots are unlikely to know there's a DZ there, and these days most pilots are using GPS navigation and none of the GPS databases show drop zones.

Very, very, very true! We've had plenty of pilots fly over our DZ. (This is a definitely a concern for me when I begin wingsuiting.)

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Jumpah 0]

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While most pilots (myself included) will try to avoid overflying a known drop zone, it still remains the jumpers responsibility to ensure the airspace is clear before exit.

,

The pertinent word here is "known". Non-local transient pilots are unlikely to know there's a DZ there, and these days most pilots are using GPS navigation and none of the GPS databases show drop zones.

I'm not sure how the GPS companies get their data...but has there been any attempt to work with them to identify known dropzones and include it in map updates? I imagine there is a process for submitting updates, much like how a new development might be included.

[tombuch 0]

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I'm not sure how the GPS companies get their data...but has there been any attempt to work with them to identify known dropzones and include it in map updates? I imagine there is a process for submitting updates, much like how a new development might be included.

Oh crap hell yeah. I've been working that issue hard since 2003. It's much more complex than you could ever imagine, but there has been progress. Randy Ottinger just took on the Government Relations gig at USPA and is currently sinking his teeth into the issue. We should see additional progress soon, but even so it will be years before drop zones appear on any GPS, FMS, or digital flight planning screen.

You will find a somewhat outdated review of the issue that I wrote in 2005 at: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1882590;#1882590

Since then...

We now have technical standards for how drop zone data is handled. We have a standard for how to depict the data in an FAA release, and an international standard for how FMS hardware will share the data. That's huge stuff. HUGE. The FAA standard isn't everything I wanted, but still, it's huge.

The FAA has digitized much of the existing data and it is flowing at some level, but the dataset is bloated with long closed drop zones, and that creates an issue with screen clutter that needs to be resolved. We may end up building a new dataset from scratch to generate a dataset of appropriate integrity that manufacturers will ultimately accept. That remains to be seen. In any event, the building of a national dataset of drop zones is the issue of the day, and there are some really smart people working on it.

We do not yet have any buy-in from manufacturers to update their firmware. That means that even if we have solid data and it is fully distributed, there is no way to actually display it on GPS or FMS screens because the software doesn't recognize a "drop zone" data type, and won't know what to do with it. This needs to be worked out with manufacturers once we have a reliable dataset in distribution. Both USPA and AOPA will be working this issue when the time is right.

Finally, we will need buy-in from pilots. That means they will need to update their GPS's and actually display the data, then avoid DZ's when practical. That's a tough step because VFR pilots don't regularly update their units, so there will be a long term legacy issue until GPS devices have been replaced through normal electronic attrition.

So don't look for resolution any time soon, but know that the problem is been worked on.

I hope that explanation helps.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[rehmwa 2]

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The pertinent word here is "known". Non-local transient pilots are unlikely to know there's a DZ there, and these days most pilots are using GPS navigation and none of the GPS databases show drop zones.

Very, very, very true! We've had plenty of pilots fly over our DZ. (This is a definitely a concern for me when I begin wingsuiting.)

Maybe, but those jackasses aren't necessarily on GPS. Our DZ is offset a major interstate by about 2 miles. Dr-CessnaPiper, the weekend pilot is just flying along parallel to the interstate and looking out his left window while using the road map. Puts him right over head of the DZ.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Jumpah 0]

Hot damn...thanks for all the hard work!

[DeepC 0]

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Your post is unclear if you were alone in the plane with no supervision from an appropriate rating holder.

I was in a plane with several other skydivers and a couple of instructors, but I was alone.

My training program is not very good. After AFF level 1 I decided I liked it and bought the full Class A instruction package. I was given a SIM a bunch of lift tickets and a yellow card; and was told to get everything done on the card to get my license. Since then I've been on my own. I don't have a counselor, or any kind of faculty advisor. I set my own pace and hunt down instructors for help. They are usually busy and it is not always easy. They are not thrilled to help with the bookwork because they get paid for training jumps not bookwork. For my solo's I manifest myself and jump by myself and nobody knows what I'm doing but me.

It's a completely disorganized and rather poor training program. My DZ is large and busy with no clear management structure.

[pilotdave 0]

Definitely time for a new DZ. You shouldn't feel that way... if you're in FL, there are dropzoness all over. Move on and bring your yellow card with you. I guarantee there's a DZ that wants to help you get finished.

Dave

[yamtx73 0]

The map on his profile shows him in the Tampa/St. Pete area... I'd think Z-hills would be the place for him to go.... I've never been there myself but have heard nothing but good things about it.

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[stratostar 5]

You've got to be kidding. Please feel free to name the DZ in question, so that others can avoid a joke of a student program.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo