When is it rape?

[lawrocket 3]

It seems as though you really do not have an understanding of hwo rape laws work.

She doesn't need to say "yes" in that circumstance. She was the one who made the move. And there is no duress on her part.

Your example is not too well founded. Of course, you could press charges on her. Let's say you initially consented but she keeps nibbling on you and it hurts and you want her to stop. She keeps going. She draws blood. Now what? Rape? Would you be satisfied with anything BUT a rape charge?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[diablopilot 2]

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I am just amazed at how quick everyone is to dismiss this as "yet another woman crying wolf."

"Crying wolf" to me means something completely different.

In this instance, the woman has contributed to being in the situation as much the man(men).

It's a far cry from a "crying wolf" situation, an example being the situation BilVon posted about.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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It is now law, in California, that withdrawal of consent must lead to immediate cessation of sexual intercourse regardless of whether or not such withdrawal is understood by the other party.

Unbelievable.

Oogable. That's my new word. Oogable = stop.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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It seems as though you really do not have an understanding of hwo rape laws work.

You are right, that is why I am asking questions. Specially when it pertains to situations where it is considered rape just because she did not say yes.

I think rape is despicable, from the story on the first post of this thread, I have a hard time telling myself that is rape.

[diablopilot 2]

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Any male in this day and age needs to stop and think before he whips his thing out.

Thank you for generalizing that all males think with their dick.

Small minded statments like this lead to missunderstandings that lead to rape cases.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Becuase if you by chanced made one of them angry,they could beat you to a pulp? maybe she was afraid?

And for that reason she shouldn't say "no", or "stop"?

It's simple, if you're going to be adult enough to participate in these activities, you need to be adult enough to say what you mean, and to hell with the consequences.

She did not say "Stop". Result: He did not stop.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[lawrocket 3]

I am a little amazed at this. "She shouldn't have been there" and "she contributed to her situation."

People lose wallets all the time. People take the wallets and drain the cash and use the credit cards, commit identity theft, etc. Is it the person's fault for losing the wallet that their life is ruined?

What about rigs and things being stolen from the DZ. But-for the person leaving their gear unattended, the gear would have never been stolen. I suppose the jumper should bear the fault, too. Impliedly, the jumper consented to the "use" of the rig by not keeping an eye on it or locking it up, right? The jumper must share equal fault, right? The jumper never told the person "not" to take the rig. Bygones, I guess..

Bullshit. Bad judgment to be in that situation? Of course. An excuse for rape? No. Is the girl responsible for a rape commited on the girl? No.

Consent given? Shag on. But, once the consent is withdrawn, so too should the penis be withdrawn and let the blue balls be felt.

It's a nice, simple rule to live by. Not easy? Neither is jail or being a registered sex offender.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Vallerina 2]

http://www.metnews.com/articles/john010703.htm
That's where there's more info to the story.

I'm not really going to go through and read much of the replies nor respond to them. If that means I lost, oh well. I don't care too much! Anyways, read your state's rape laws. Men, assume "No answer means no." Also, it's not a discussion of what you think is "right" or "wrong." It's a discussion of legalities.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[diablopilot 2]

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As for the drunkness thing....a girl feels forced into having sex.

Please clarify who you are speaking of in this statemnet. A hypothetical situation? A real women? A generalization about all women?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[misskriss 0]

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As for the drunkness thing....a girl feels forced into having sex.

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Please clarify who you are speaking of in this statemnet. A hypothetical situation? A real women? A generalization about all women?
Blue Skies, -jp-

When I was in highschool I was at a friends party. Actually it was just a bunch of us girls and her parents were out of town. Her older brother was there...I guess he was 19 or so.. I was 16. We had been drinking and I got drunk.. I went upstairs to lie down and fall asleep. I remember her brother coming in and asking if I was okay.....I remember him laying on top of me and pulling my shirt off. I was so out of it and afraid that I could not even move. I had tears in my eyes but he kept telling me to ....."shhhhhh...it will be okay.." Thank God, my friend walked in the room to check on me or he would have had sex with me. I was too afraid and too out of it to even move. It was definitely not consensual but I did not say no . Thank God, that night I was saved....unfortunately several years later I was not.

[Douva 0]

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>I'm worried about living in a country where men are expected to
>behave more like women because that is what is socially acceptable.

What expectation makes "behaving like a woman" more socially acceptable? What behaviors do you think are inherently different between men and women?

The way I understand it, differences in the levels of the hormones testosterone and serotonin between men and women, combined with the difference in size between the amygdala region of the male and female brain cause significant, inherent behavioral differences between the sexes. Women are inclined toward predictability, stability, security, caution, and steadiness. Men are inclined toward change, opportunity, risk, speculation, and adventure. Women are also generally more nurturing, sensitive, tender, and compassionate. Men are generally more stoic and less emotional. Obviously every person is unique, and there are examples that go against the norm, but these are the basic emotional characteristics that define men and women. What I object to is the notion that men are immature, uncontrollably impulsive, selfish, weak, and stupid. It is this later school of thought that suggests that all men are, at heart, rapists in waiting. It is this philosophy that says men don't respect women because men don't treat women the way women treat men. The truth is, men and women treat each other the way they are naturally inclined to, and this does not make either side better or worse than the other. It certainly doesn't mean that men are all animal aggressors who must but be stopped or changed.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[lawrocket 3]

She need not specifically provide oral or written consent in California. The laws are set up to determine whether there was force used. Force can be anything. If she says "no" but does not resist, it'll be rape if the court finds that she did not resist because of force or immediate threat of force. That is, if she believes resistance would be futile, she does not have to.

Or, if she is unconscious she cannot give consent. That means don't go hitting it with an unconscious female (or male for that matter).

Her actions may indicate consent if she initiates. But, there is a fine line that is up to the courts, many times. And, it's not tough to be on the safe side.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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She need not specifically provide oral or written consent in California.

Okay, that I understand. Val made a statement that specific oral consent had to be provided or it would be considered rape in certain states. That is really what I was replying to.

[diablopilot 2]

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I am a little amazed at this. "She shouldn't have been there" and "she contributed to her situation."

People lose wallets all the time. People take the wallets and drain the cash and use the credit cards, commit identity theft, etc. Is it the person's fault for losing the wallet that their life is ruined?

Poor example. In your scenario there is no relationship, or chance for comunication between the two parties.

All parties involved exercised questional judgement IMO. But assuming that the woman entered into the sexual act willingly, and then chaged her mind, but did not adiquately comunicate that desire to the other party, then IMO she is culpable for a portion of the responsibility.

Question: You're in california having a one night stand. Durring the sexual act, your partner says "Oh, wow." What do you do?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[WrongWay 0]

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I don't think this is really complicated. If a woman says no at any time in my books it means NO! I don't care if your about to blow your load, NO means NO! As for 'I should go home' if theres any doubt whatsoever, read NO! Rapists piss me off If a woman says no and ment maybe or yes, to bad, she just lost out. If people want to say no then have a safe word.

RIGHT ON!!! I couldn't have summed it up better. Every word here should be taken literally, including "Rapists piss me off."

I think rape is any time a man (or woman) forces a woman (or man) to do anything sexual they do not want/consent to do. Here's a scenario:

A man/woman are having sex. The woman changes her mind and says to stop. The man pulls out and stops. NOT RAPE.

HOWEVER, if the man continues after the woman has clearly said stop.....RAPE.

Still, women should know to BE SMART. Don't just consent to having sex without thinking about it, and then just expect him to stop when you say, cuz let's face it, some guys out there are pieces of shit who seem like nice guys until you get them in that situation. Just be more cautious about who you sleep with, or to put it out loud, don't be a slut and take home the first guy you meet on a random night.

And guys, NO MEANS NO. When a woman says NO, you stop right there. There is no "why", there is no "oh come on", nor is there "just a little longer", it's NO. No exceptions.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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I agree in that if she wanted to stop having sex, "I have to go home" was obviously not the best choice of words. However, I don't doubt that she wanted to stop having sex.

I don't think that is in dispute. I agree she appears to have wanted to stop having sex. However we comunicate through words. It's one of the things that makes us more than animals. She simply needed to say "Stop." for this to be a clear cut rape case.

Saying that "Stop." is a hard thing to say, or she was worried about what someone would think or do if she said it is not a consideration in this case.

No man should be legaly at fault simply because he's not a mind reader. Most people would probably picked up a stong hint at that point, but agin we're talking about teenagers, who are still learning the ways of adult life.

Again, if the girl wanted to play in an adult game she should act like one. If she wanted to stop, say "Stop." How is that "I have to get home" should be interperated any differently than "I need to go shopping"

I agree...I know I'll prolly be the odd-woman-out on this, but if you are too 'embarrassed' or WHATEVER to say "NO! STOP! GET OFF OF ME!" but you still expect to be able to press charges of rape??? Geezus, your timidness JUSTIFIES you to charge a guy with rape?? WTF!! If a woman does not TAKE THE TIME to tell the man in no uncertain terms that she means for this to end, then how in the HELL do you think you can charge rape? This is just beyond me...

Exception being, of course, if you are physically incapable of saying those words...i.e., too drunk to know, gagged, etc....

And I don't think in 10 years I have ever told my husband, "Yes. I want to have sex with you right now." So then to Vallerina...does that mean I've been raped for 10 years?? Give me a break. 'No' always means 'no'. 'Get off of me', 'You're hurting me get off', those are pretty damn self-explanatory. However, not saying your 'perfect I consent' phrase, or saying something about needing to get your house painted, etc. does NOT mean 'no'. So really a woman is given a choice as to which will have more impactful consequences; saying the freaking word 'no' or a man arrested in jail for rape. That is a selfish choice by a woman in my experience. If you are too selfish and 'shy' to say "NO" then you have NO DAMN BUSINESS HAVING SEX. I hate it when people try to give rape more boundaries than it should have. Opening doors to ruin people's lives that shouldn't be ruined because later on she had misgivings about what she did...and didn't want to be seen as 'easy'...

Statistics are complete crap...and I mean both ways...'X percent of rape charges are true'...define 'true'...do you mean as seen in a court of law? Do you mean both the rapist and the victim agreed that it was rape? Were there witnesses? A video to prove it? Only 2 people know what happened for certain. Him and her. On the flip side, there are SO MANY rapes that aren't even reported...that these stats are just worthless. I don't put a bit of credibility into them whatsoever. I could put together a set of statistics to convince half the people in this country that H2O is an evil that kills and that we should quit drinking it and using it; it's simply what portion of the whole you present.

I wanted SO MUCH to not even look at this thread or open it...but this just gets under my skin.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[diablopilot 2]

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When I was in highschool I was at a friends party. Actually it was just a bunch of us girls and her parents were out of town. Her older brother was there...I guess he was 19 or so.. I was 16. We had been drinking and I got drunk.. I went upstairs to lie down and fall asleep. I remember her brother coming in and asking if I was okay.....I remember him laying on top of me and pulling my shirt off. I was so out of it and afraid that I could not even move. I had tears in my eyes but he kept telling me to ....."shhhhhh...it will be okay.." Thank God, my friend walked in the room to check on me or he would have had sex with me. I was too afraid and too out of it to even move. It was definitely not consensual but I did not say no . Thank God, that night I was saved....unfortunately several years later I was not.

A bastard who behaves in that maner deserves to be drug out into the street and shot, IMO.

Had a rape occured in that scenario, I don't believe there would be any problem detemining where the blame lies.

There is a huge difference between that, and starting the act willingly and then changing your mind, but NOT comunicating that clearly. In the case we are talking about the key point is whether the intent to withdraw consent was comunicated clearly.

Any man or woman who does not respond to "no", or "stop" should be held responsible if they fail to. But should the same person be held responsible for failing to stop when the word "Bob" is uttered?

In this scenario, I believe the man understood the comunication "I have to get home" to mean "I want to stop" as he was reported to say "just give me a minute". Poor move on his part.

It however does not remove the woman of the reponsibility of clearly stating here intentions/desires.

Therefore I hold her responsible as well.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[skipro101 0]

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Allowing 2, not just one, but TWO teenaged boys to undress and fondle her, admitting she enjoyed it and having sex with each doesn't mean "yes".

Even if she enjoyed it doesn't mean she didn't want to stop halfway through. She has that right to do so.

Then why didnt she? This makes me furious. She didnt say no. She said "I should go home". WTF. Its not like she got up and left and they forced her back. She enjoyed it! What a bunch of $hit.

F-ing bs. I hope she gets whats comming to her.

[juanesky 0]

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I believe if the female in question meant no then she should have said no; i.e...STOP!

Yes, that is your belief. However, as said before, the law does not say that she has to say "stop" or "no" to not give consent.

And, as I've said before, there is probably more to the case than posted here.

Also adding: I am just amazed at how quick everyone is to dismiss this as "yet another woman crying wolf." People really think that stereotype is more common than it actually is. If you don't know all the facts, how can you assume anything?

Well you seem quick to side with someone who gets naked, enjoys being fondled )by 2 at a time), and suddenly states a simple "I have to go home" as sufficient evidence meaning she is being raped rather than a consentual act. This really sounds like a nut case.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[lawrocket 3]

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Question: You're in california having a one night stand. Durring the sexual act, your partner says "Oh, wow." What do you do?

What would I do? Heck, I'd like to think I'd wonder what was up. You've got a great point. In re John Z. did nothing but make what is and what is not rape hazier. It is because of this haziness that I think you should err on the side of restraint.

Also, in reading the opinion, note that the problem that the court had was not one of force, but one of persistence. The girl apparently said she needs to go home three times, and the boy said just a little longer. That was the main issue.

The holding does not do many favors to clarity. To anyone discussing this, it should be noted that you are all on notice...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[diablopilot 2]

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In re John Z. did nothing but make what is and what is not rape hazier. It is because of this haziness that I think you should err on the side of restraint.

Agreed. "What a Wonderful World" I wonder if Mr. Armstrong would have created that song after reading this thread.

I challenge everyone, man or woman, to be more clear in communication with those around you in EVERY aspect of life.

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The girl apparently said she needs to go home three times, and the boy said just a little longer. That was the main issue.

And as I stated in a post just above this one a bit IMO that means to me that the male in this situation did understand the females desire to stop the act.

However it does not absolve her of the responsibility to clearly communicate her intentions/desires.

Physically it is easier to say "Stop." than "I have to go home."

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[lawrocket 3]

Yes sir, I am with you there. And she should clearly communicate her intentions. And I think we are in agreement that it still doesn't make it right what rapists do.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[juanesky 0]

What about setting up a psychic hotline on hand for when this situation arises?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Malfunction 0]

Been Lurking, but suddenly had a huge impulse to respond to this bold comment.

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Sigh...when will guys realize that "crying rape" should be one of their least concerns???? You should be much more concerned about getting a vd (yes, even if you use a condom) rather than getting accused of rape.

Val, do you really believe that rape should be one of the last things a guy should be thinking about? Come on, with all the rape charges flying around like they are going out of style, should I really be ignoring the fact that only 30% of the female population (1 out of 3 PEOPLE, so 1 out of 3 females and 1 out of 3 males) have some sort of vd but potentially 100% of women can claim rape? Should I really believe that vd is more of a threat than a rape charge? You of all people should know (since you have the research) that once rape is claimed, it is either convicted or the charges are dropped. Hardly ever is a rape charge ruled in favor of the defendant, and less than 1% of that is ruled in favor of the defendant if the defendant is male. When cases are ruled on and judgments made like the one in the first post of this thread, it opens the door to any woman anywhere claiming rape anytime, and they don't even have to say "NO" for it to be upheld in court. And you say you don't see men having to tread lightly in today's day and age? Rulings like this put men EVEN MORE on the slippery slope, as if we weren't already.

Would you like to know how quickly a rape charge can be brought forth? I had a girlfriend of 6 months, and finally we decided to consummate our relationship. It was agreed on and during the act, there were no clues, subtle or otherwise, that would make either of us stop. Afterwards, we laid together for roughly 5 minutes until she got up to get a cigarette; I went to the bathroom. By the time I came back, she was dressed, and walking out the door, and I was facing a rape charge the next day.

Tell me, where was the rape? The court system agreed with her until the day of the ruling when she dropped all charges. The slippery slope has been an issue for me and (generalizing) men since the courts first ruled that "No means No and Yes could mean No, depending on the situation." Since the majority of this thread has been dedicated to the original post, my response is as well; it should NOT have been a rape charge because she DID NOT SAY OR IMPLY "NO." She simply implied that she needed to go home...hell, I need to go home too, but I didn't say "NO," did I. Granted, Cali has already passed that ridiculous law. IMO, it hinders men's rights almost to the point of where women's rights were before the Women's Lib movement. Men now can not look at, talk to, touch, kiss, have sex with, call, visit, listen to or argue with a woman in today's society or face the possibility of herassment, rape, domestic abuse or gender discrimination.[soap box -- getting off now... the soap box that is... damn, another herassment charge coming from someone]

Rape is such a quick trigger response for many women and it is a probability response for the rest. Regardless whether you have or will or want to claim rape, the probability is there because the judicial system in America has decided that we don't need the burden of proof in rape cases; it is always guilty and proven guilty.

-Mal

[SublimeBreeze 0]

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The other guy was also charged with rape and the girl apparently said more than was reported in that editorial. There are several differing accounts:


http://www.metnews.com/articles/john010703.htm


There's always more to the story, isn't there?

Baaaah Another display of terrible news reporting on fox news part. READ THIS ARTICLE!!! im sure there are more out there, this really makes it easier.

Anyways

Peace

Sean
Sean In Thailand