AcEXBOX 0 #1 January 14, 2003 FOXNEWS On Jan. 6, the California Supreme Court ruled 6-1 that if a woman rescinds consent during the sex act, the man is guilty of rape if he does not stop immediately. It also ruled that statements such as "I should go home" constitute an unambiguous "no" on the woman's part. The definition of rape has evolved again. What are the facts of the case? Seventeen-year-old Laura T. attended an otherwise all-male party at which she did not drink. After allowing two teenaged boys to undress and fondle her in a bedroom -- acts she admitted enjoying -- she had sex with each. Laura did not say the word "no" nor did she resist. Instead, she said, "I have to go home." Because John Z. continued for approximately four minutes after she first expressed what might have been reluctance, he was convicted of rape. Rape is an abomination no civilized society can tolerate. But precisely because rape is such a serious crime, it is important to establish explicit and reasonable standards by which to judge the guilt or innocence of those accused. If a woman (or man) clearly says "stop" during consensual sex, then the partner should be morally and legally constrained to do just that -- stop. But what if the partner proceeds in good faith on the basis of a "yes" given moments before? Common sense dictates that the rescinded "no" must be explicit and that the partner should have a reasonable amount of time to grasp the changed circumstances. But the court ruled that sex becomes rape the instant the woman rescinds consent and it provided no guidance on what constitutes the withdrawal of consent. The sole dissenting voice, Justice Janice Rogers Brown, found that none of Laura's statements were "unequivocal." Her requests to go home could have been interpreted as a need for reassurance or a request for greater speed. This is a nontrivial point. The law assumes that all adults are responsible agents in sexual matters. (Laura T.'s age was not introduced as a significant factor in the court's conclusion.) The law assumes that women and men are able to make their wants known and, so, have a responsibility to do so. As for the timing issue ... the court relied heavily upon John Z.'s failure to desist immediately. But, as Brown observed, the decision "does not tell us how soon would have been soon enough. Ten seconds? Thirty? A minute? Is persistence the same thing as force?" John Z.'s attorney, Carol Foster, argued that her client should have been given a "reasonable amount of time" in which to withdraw. This is also nontrivial. If John Z. had a reasonable belief of consent, then he should also have a reasonable amount of time to realize circumstances had changed. Brown -- the dissenting judge -- continued, "and even if we conclude persistence should be criminalized in this situation, should the penalty be the same as for forcible rape?" In essence, Brown is asking whether consensual sex that becomes nonconsensual at some point should be treated in the same manner as a back alley rape committed at the point of a knife. Or should there be another category of rape, such as negligence, which carries a lesser penalty? No one wants to return to the '70s when women who took rape cases to trial were emotionally shredded in cross-examinations. None of us long for the days when the reports of a raped woman were summarily dismissed by a cynical police department. But the recent California decision is not a remedy for such problems surrounding the issue of rape. Sixties feminism deserves a lot of credit for bringing sanity to bear on the crime of rape. They broke down a mythology that claimed only "bad" girls who walked alone at night in tight clothing were raped. Research showed exactly the opposite to be true. Every woman was vulnerable to attack, even in her own home and especially from men she knew. Sixties feminism attacked a court system that believed rape complainants were less reliable than other victims. Feminists attacked the "reasonable resistance" requirement imposed by most states; that is, rape was not deemed to have occurred unless the woman had manifested strenuous resistance. Meanwhile, other crimes did not require a victim to resist in order for a crime to have occurred. The prosecution of rape used to be skewed against women. Now it seems to be skewed against men. No longer is criminal intent necessary for criminal guilt. No longer is an explicit "no" necessary for the withdrawal of consent. And men may be well advised to keep a stopwatch as well as contraceptives by the bedside. The Laura T. decision may well become a Pandora's Box for false accusations of rape. No longer can the man point to a woman's explicit consent because she can now argue that -- once penetration occurred -- she changed her mind. She need not utter the word "no!" She can merely say, "I have to go home." As the former mainstream feminist professor Erin O'Connor notes in her blog, "this ruling neatly dispenses with the idea that rape necessarily involves force, and replaces it with a definition of consent that is as uncertain and shifting as the woman who wields it." http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,75405,00.html The girl was a total whore, this is BS!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #2 January 14, 2003 Wow, talk about throwing a firebomb.I really try to refrain from posting in this (women only) forum, but I'm going to share a few of my thoughts on this.I don't see this as a "women's only" issue. Maybe you ought to have considered putting it in Talkback?The whole point of this forum is to create a safe place for women to discuss things (and give guys a peek into their heads--so long as we lurk quietly). I don't think your posting is helping this feel like a safe place for women.Although my thoughts on the Court's ruling may be similar to yours, I really think you might want to reconsider throwing this out in this forum.I'm sure we can have lots of interesting and valuable discussion about this somewhere else. I'm not sure this is the best place to do so.Just a thought.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #3 January 14, 2003 If I was a girl, I'd start going around my uni sleeping with everyone. Then in the middle I'd say something like "Damn, I've got a lot of homework to do". And then summarily sue everyone. I wonder if the same rule applies to a guy, too. This is just further evidence that the American legal system needs a large collective smack. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #4 January 14, 2003 QuoteI don't see this as a "women's only" issue. Maybe you ought to have considered putting it in Talkback? I don't see it as a women's only issue either, so I moved it to Talkback. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #5 January 14, 2003 Quote"Damn, I've got a lot of homework to do". And then summarily sue everyone. That's a damn good idea. I can understand changing you mind in the middle of things. That's mean, but understandable... I guess. If you weren't sure though, don't start. But "I have to go home" .... what?! So now no means no, and yes means maybe.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #6 January 14, 2003 Changing your mind halfway through "the act" is really confusing. Someone should explain to little girls that once you have aroused a man beyond a certain point, it is extremely difficult to stop. Does that mean you can change your mind ten seconds after leaving the airplane and get a full refund? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #7 January 14, 2003 Uh-huh. Plus, she doesn't have to be forceful in her "no". We've changed No to Meh. If she starts kicking and screaming at you, you might decide to get the fuck away from her because she is seriously unstable, but you should stop. I agree with that. But she has to start kicking and screaming. Ugh. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #8 January 14, 2003 You know, what about men? All these laws protect women, what about men? Why can't we be protected from crazy bitches that marry us, wait for us to accumulate some money, then divorce us and take everything: money, kids, even our rigs (and they don't even skydive)? Just ask Rhino, eh? -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #9 January 14, 2003 Quote Why can't we be protected from crazy bitches that marry us Simple way to avoid that problem. Don't ask her to marry you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #10 January 14, 2003 Unfortunately, sometimes you can't tell. And sometimes she becomes crazy after you've married her. Rhino is a case in point I believe... Besides, this is why I'm not going to marry any time soon -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #11 January 14, 2003 QuoteQuote Why can't we be protected from crazy bitches that marry us Simple way to avoid that problem. Don't ask her to marry you. But it's the ones that are crazy, and do a really good job of hiding it that you have to watch out for! I think maybe it's a game... kind of like a hunt. I mean, when you go fishing, the point is to make the fish think it's a real tasty treat they're about to get. Once they're on the hook though, it's too late! So guys, be a smart fish - watch for the little string coming from the female, that's a sure sign she's actually crazy.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #12 January 14, 2003 I don't think we will have an answer to this one until we first define what "is" is. We also need to define what "sex" is. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #13 January 14, 2003 QuoteThe girl was a total whore, this is BS!! I'm so glad society has progressed so much (again, HH, we need an eye rolling smiley.) First of all, if you are having sex with a girl, and she mentions having to do homework, you probably aren't doing things right in the first place. Second of all, I don't see how saying no halfway through is a big deal. That's like saying, if you have sex with a guy once, you shouldn't change your mind about having sex with him again. So, it stinks for the guy...guess what...you get a big BOO HOO from me. I guess the real debate is if "I have to go home" means "no." Once again, you should probably question your technique if a girl says that in the middle of sex. However, someone indicating they want to be in a different location than their current one basically does say "no." Also, we know "No means no." However, many courts use "No answer means no." From the report, it seems that she never said yes and only gave signs of her wanting to leave.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #14 January 14, 2003 Quote Someone should explain to little girls that once you have aroused a man beyond a certain point, it is extremely difficult to stop. someone should explain to little men that this is about as bullshit a comment as a male could make!! ...and people wonder what attitude it takes to commit the crime.You're saying that if you're going to town and you, oh let's say, are hurting the woman (hypothetical) and she asks you to stop, that you can not, due to your arousal level, stop having sex? I bet if someone were to ask a question like "is it in yet?" while one were highly aroused, that would tend to dampen things enough to make it no longer extremely difficult to stop. Use your hand to finish...it's not like it's a stranger. arlo (sorry WG). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #15 January 14, 2003 QuoteBut it's the ones that are crazy, and do a really good job of hiding it that you have to watch out for! Again, simple way to avoid the problem. Don't get married. It's not just women who get weird after the wedding day. And there are usually clues surfacing long before the wedding day, regardless of which partner is the "crazy" one. Personally, I'd rather keep that back door unlocked... in case I need to bail... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #16 January 14, 2003 I see it's mostly guys responding to this. I think all these new sexual harrasment cases, etc. have made it EXTREMELY difficult for men to even breathe around a women w/out worrying about the consequences. Unfortunately, a few women ruin it for the real cases that happen. I feel sorry for men AND women. Not to attack any one response, however, I think it SUCKS if you really believe after a "certain point" of arrousing a man it's not OK for a woman (or man) to say "NO!". Yea, it sucks and it would have been a lot nicer if she had said so earlier but whatever. It's still no and should be respected and OBEYED! I think the whole, "the no should be forceful or she needs to push you away" or whatever is bullshit. Again, I sympathize with the men b/c there are some false sexual harrasment claims out there and some women crying wolf (not referring to rape). But we can't let those people make a mokery out of something very serious and life-altering to the people that things really happen to, man or woman. No is no, no matter when she says it. But in reference to the court case mentioned, "I should go home" isn't "No" in my book, either.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #17 January 14, 2003 Quote watch for the little string coming from the female, that's a sure sign she's actually crazy. Yeah, but the craziness will only last about 4 days. ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #18 January 14, 2003 Quote Quote watch for the little string coming from the female, that's a sure sign she's actually crazy. Yeah, but the craziness will only last about 4 days. If you're lucky.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #19 January 14, 2003 Quote From the report, it seems that she never said yes and only gave signs of her wanting to leave. QuoteWhat are the facts of the case? Seventeen-year-old Laura T. attended an otherwise all-male party at which she did not drink. After allowing two teenaged boys to undress and fondle her in a bedroom -- acts she admitted enjoying -- she had sex with each. Laura did not say the word "no" nor did she resist. Instead, she said, "I have to go home." Allowing 2, not just one, but TWO teenaged boys to undress and fondle her, admitting she enjoyed it and having sex with each doesn't mean "yes"? I now see why a large chunk of the male population is going to bat for the "other team". Edit to add: And she cannot blame alcohol on this either. She was sober, and obviously took her sex seriously.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #20 January 14, 2003 Quote Again, I sympathize HEAVILY with the men b/c there are a lot of false claims out there and some women crying wolf. I do not sympathize with men at all. Less than 1% of claims are false (yes I have a source to back it up, but I am at work, and my binder of information on rape is at home.) Also, something like 70% of cases aren't even reported.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaaska 0 #21 January 14, 2003 This is the reason why, basically in all the Uni's in Europe, the international coordinators tell all the male students heading to study overseas that they should avoid sexual intercourse IF NOT completely sure of the girl and her feelings. Basically what we have been told is that "you can be prosecuted of daterape if you hurt girl's feelings". There's a story of Finnish exchange student (male) sleeping with a a girl in a campus and the guy was later - when the girl wanted "more out of the relationship" than just one night thing and the guy did not - prosecuted and found guilty of rape. Most likely just a fairytale to make everybody to understand the seriousness of this issue. This whole issue is like a thing red line to me. If I was still a single and participating in an exchange program in a college somewhere in the US, I would probably confine myself to the old fashion handshake style. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #22 January 14, 2003 Quote Allowing 2, not just one, but TWO teenaged boys to undress and fondle her, admitting she enjoyed it and having sex with each doesn't mean "yes". Even if she enjoyed it doesn't mean she didn't want to stop halfway through. She has that right to do so.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #23 January 14, 2003 I will go back and edit to clarify. I was referring to sexual harrasment, not rape. Women getting pised b/c a man opened a door for her or whatever or women at work crying wolf to get a man fired. That I sympathize with b/c it happend at my current job and the girls did it just b/c they didn't like the guy.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #24 January 14, 2003 False sexual harassment claims are also incredibly low....I believe it was less than 3% or something.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #25 January 14, 2003 QuoteQuote Allowing 2, not just one, but TWO teenaged boys to undress and fondle her, admitting she enjoyed it and having sex with each doesn't mean "yes". Even if she enjoyed it doesn't mean she didn't want to stop halfway through. She has that right to do so. This case in particular bothers me. It was just plain wrong. Sex with 2 guys. One finished, and wasn't charged. The other was in the process, the girl "had to go home", and he gets blasted with rape. Something is just not right there, so: I'm stepping out of this thread before I lose any friends. C'Ya!It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
