When is it rape?

[sunshine 2]

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I think all these new sexual harrasment cases, etc. have made it EXTREMELY difficult for men to even breathe around a women w/out worrying about the consequences.

I agree. Some women take sexual harrassment too far. But in the case of rape, well thats a harder issue to deal with.

I can kinda understand how a man would have trouble stopping after there is penetration. It would take incredible willpower. As to the point of a girl saying NO before penetration, there is no excuse if he continues. The only word that means NO is NO. I need to go home, or i need to do my homework. WTF? That doesn't tell a guy you mean NO.

This is just such a difficult subject. I know that i believe if the wife says NO and the husband continues, then that is a rape. There are others that say it's not becuase they're married. Those rapes go unreported all the time. We could talk about this all day and still never really come up with agreeable answers.

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meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[Vallerina 2]

Hehe....not losing any friends, Jim, I just have very strong opinions, especially since I did hours of research and took hours of training on the subject matter.

I'm also not saying that this a women only issue. If a guy wants to stop halfway through, it is also his right. Just because you start something, the law doesn't say you have to finish.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[PLFXpert 0]

I'm not saying the statistic is wrong, but statistics can only account for what was proven false or true and even then a lot of times it's one person's word against another's which makes it very difficult to tell.

I learned in more than a few classes that most statistics will tell you more crime happens in poor neighborhoods. This is a false statistic however. Crime rate is the same in poor and affluent neighborhoods but the crime in poor neighborhoods si more visible to the eye than crime that goes on in affluent neighborhoods that is more easily kept under raps.

The analogy is not related at all to the subject, but jsut proves that not all statistics are reliable or what they seem.

I agree that there are WAY more real cases than false ones (talking about sexual harrasment, not rape), but I do think recently there has been a surge in women being overly sensitive to harmless banter in the workplace and getting people fired over it. That is opinion, however. I have no statistics to back me up. But the behavior I saw the three women who work w/ me really made me ashamed for them. They simply did not like the guy and he was fired.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[wildblue 7]

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I can kinda understand how a man would have trouble stopping after there is penetration. It would take incredible willpower.

No, it's not really all that hard. I don't care how 'aroused' you are. And I don't think you should get some amount of time to "collect yourself" and stop like the lady for the defense said - that's stupid. I do believe, "I have to go home" doesn't mean "stop". Like that one judge said, that could just mean hurry up. I also don't think it's that hard to make yourself clear on what you want. "No" and "Stop" require less effort to say than "I have to go home" and they make it very obvious on what it is you want to have happen. In this case, I think it's BS because all she said was she had to go home. She didn't try to push him off, she didn't say no or stop ... what's the guy supposed to think?

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[PLFXpert 0]

We probably took the same classes/research.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Guest]

Good old Wendy Mac.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[sunshine 2]

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I can kinda understand how a man would have trouble stopping after there is penetration. It would take incredible willpower.
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No, it's not really all that hard.

Maybe for a decent guy, but there are a lot of losers out there with no self control that lose their mind once they're "in" and refuse to stop cause they're too immature to be able to. Anyhoo, like the good RevJim, i'm outta this thread.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[Vallerina 2]

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She didn't try to push him off, she didn't say no or stop ... what's the guy supposed to think?

Once again going to the fact that a person is not required to do either to not give consent. If the guy wasn't sure what "I have to go home" meant, he should've asked. My analogy....if a guy at a bar asks a woman if she wants another drink...she says "I have to go home." How do you take that answer?

Also, I understand that these statistics are not 100% (I am a stat major afterall!) I really wish I could explain where they came from...I will try to find the stuff when I get home, though.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[PLFXpert 0]

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Those rapes go unreported all the time. We could talk about this all day and still never really come up with agreeable answers.

Exactly, which is unfortunate, b/c everyone, men and women, should AT LEAST be able to agree that no matter when it's said or what led up to it, or whatever, no means no, period. Even if the situation could have been handled better.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Vallerina 2]

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b/c everyone, men and women, should AT LEAST be able to agree that no matter when it's said or what led up to it, or whatever, no means no, period. Even if the situation could have been handled better.

EXACTLY!

The only debate is whether "I have to go home" means "no."

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[wildblue 7]

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My analogy....if a guy at a bar asks a woman if she wants another drink...she says "I have to go home." How do you take that answer?

If she wasn't getting up from the bar stool, looking for her purse, and/or putting her coat on - I'd think she's just waiting to be swayed one way or the other.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[PLFXpert 0]

Exactly, and maybe I'm in the minority here, but I think if you can mumble out the entire sentence, "I have to go home," then you can say a simple "NO".

As we all know, men DO NOT pick up on hints. They HAVE to be told straight up.

I agree w/ you that the man should have asked for clarification, like, "what do you mean you ahve to go home." but I can't see where it's clear cut in this case. MANY men would not take that phrase as a no.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[wmw999 2,439]

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what do you mean you ahve to go home." but I can't see where it's clear cut in this case. MANY men would not take that phrase as a no

I agree with what Wildblue said about other hints being needed if you're not going to take the straight-on approach -- getting up, putting on your coat, whatever. If you mean NO enough to have a guy take his penis out of you, you should probably have the decency to say NO. I agree that you should be able to change your mind whenever it seems right, but you can't expect someone else to know it changed simply because you do.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Vallerina 2]

Maybe she thought "I have to go home" gave her an excuse. Maybe she thought that by saying that instead of "no," he wouldn't accuse her of being a whore/rude/whatever else since she already started and had finished with the other.

The boy obviously used bad judgment. When a girl says something meaning "I can't be here," what guys out there wouldn't think twice about what she meant?

Adding on: since many states use the "no answer means no" to prosecute rapists, shouldn't a person giving a hint of not wanting to be there be an even bigger sign than no answer at all?

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[PLFXpert 0]

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The boy obviously used bad judgment. When a girl says something meaning "I can't be here," what guys out there wouldn't think twice about what she meant?

Although it seems OBVIOUS to you and me, it really isn't to some guys unless it's a clear cut NO. I'm not excusing the guy's judgement, b/c like you said, he could have asked for clarification as to what she meant.

Like Wildblue said, some girls (NOT ME!) say things b/c they want to be swayed either way, comforted or whatever. It's not always clear what a girl means sometimes, like when guys ask what's wrong and a girl says, "nothing", and there IS something wrong. Not to mention, I'd rather be thought of as a rude/whore or whatever than do something I didnt' want to do. Worrying about what the guy will think of her is the LEAST of her problems.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[wildblue 7]

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I agree with what Wildblue said about other hints being needed ....

And in this case, any hints she gave sure didn't point to "I don't want to be here" She wasn't drunk, she just let two guys undress her and fondle her, and just had sex with one and started having sex with the other - you might get one guy out of 100 to question what she meant by that, and say something like "Do you want me to stop?" I don't think the other 99 are being stupid, dull, criminal, or unreasonable. Even if she used something slightly less ambiguous like "That hurts" or something, I might understand, but "I have to go home" ??

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[Vallerina 2]

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It's not always clear what a girl means sometimes,

If he didn't understand, it was his responsibilty to ask. He didn't.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[jaaska 0]

You've got a poin there! Most of the men have, what I call, a tube brains. I'm not refering to the rape case here, but in generally men need to be told in clear, easy way.

The worst thing a woman can tell to guy a is "If you don't know what's wrong with me then that's wrong with me!". It just confuses guys and makes them uncertain since THEY DO NOT know, in most of the cases, what's wrong with the woman in the first place. Any woman can tell how well most of the men can cope with uncertainty and the insecurity it causes... There's the vicious circle .

[PLFXpert 0]

That I'll give you!

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[riddler 0]

The safest thing to do is not participate in sex. Ever again. For the rest of your life.

This goes for viewing pornography as well (see the Pete Townsend thread).

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[kevin922 0]

We are skydivers, we should never have this problem.. why? Because everyone knows where there is a skydiver there is a video camera. SOOOO if you record you having sex with the person you can clearly show she was willing to have sex!! Of course if the camera shows otherwise, then stop raping her

[wildblue 7]

Ok, so if I ask you for $1200, and you give it to me, then you say "Man, I wish I had a big screen TV" - if I don't ask if you want your $1200 back, you can convict me of robbery?

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[pds 0]

unsolicited violence or lack of consent are a good starting point. _when_ it becomes rape does not qualify as a mitigating factor.

and this bullshit about not being able to stop is amusing as if orgasm is a mindless master to be obeyed. it's not about the cumming, it's about the being there. get your knuckles off the ground and start breathing through your noses like good human beans. (previous thought directed at no one in particular)

broaden your horizons

namaste, motherfucker.

[Jessica 0]

Losing $20 isn't the same as having someone inside you that you don't want there. Bad analogy.

Anyway, that piece was an editorial so I doubt we got all the facts. However -- I agree that the rape conviction wasn't right. That young lady got into a bad situation then lacked the fortitude to get herself out of it. "No" can be a very hard word to say.

By the way, I'm willing to bet some of the responders in this thread do not appreciate the irony of my sig line.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[billvon 2,989]

>If he didn't understand, it was his responsibilty to ask. He didn't.

And if she says "OOhh?" Does he stop and ask her what she meant by that?

The problem I see with this ruling is that it seems like the fundamental issue is that a man must understand the state of mind of a woman before he can be assured of consent. In other words, she can say one thing and mean another, and he has to understand that. "I have to go home" may mean "no." "OOhh" may mean "Ow, I don't like that, stop." That's a very hard standard to measure up to.

Previously, good communication was sufficient. A woman could talk to a man beforehand and say "Yes, I may do X Y and Z, but that doesn't mean I want you to stop. But if I do A and B, then I do want you to stop." And that's how it should be, I think. All people know themselves to some degree, and if she suddenly does C during the act because she's experiencing something new (good _or_ bad) then she can add that to her list of things she talks about beforehand.

Now, it seems like the standard has become that the guy has to know what C is before she does, and even has to understand suddenly if the woman changes all the rules halfway through, so that X, Y and Z now mean "stop." And that's not possible.

About the only way I can see a guy getting complete protection from an arbitrarily confused or noncommunicative woman is to make sure that the woman is the top (physically) so that to continue the act _she_ has to physically do stuff. Workable perhaps but it would sure be an odd result - a US court dictating sex positions.

Of course, a much better solution is to only have sexual relationships with people you know really, really well, but unfortunately that's not going to happen.