What are your feelings for the Coach Program from USPA?

[namdrib 0]

Ok guys, time to hit on a touchy subject. Feel free to post your views on this, I'm sure that I have not included all of the options for answers on here so let it out.

Personally, I think that the program is a waste. I feel that it should be part of the sport for the up jumpers to include the students to improve their skills like the upjumpers did when I came in the sport 10 years ago.

Maybe I am just overlooking the obvious, but why should these jumpers have to pay extra to advance. Us, as experienced jumpers should want to do that out of kindness! And all of this is coming from a Coach.

Unknowing attempting to take out all 4 wheeled vehicles remotely close to the landing area!

[JJohnson 0]

Yes I think that many things should be done/taught out of respect and kindness. However many things are taught incorrectly.
I am amazed at how many things I re-learn, how many things I take for granted without knowing the facts behind them.

I'm all for things being taught correctly and consistently as well. Some standardization is required. I don't begrudge some one charging for canopy classes, freefly coaching...what have you. So a coach teaches basic skills...hopefully according to set standards at a reasonable cost.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[IMGR2 0]

You really don't want me to get on my soapbox on this one.
I grew up in skydiving where I was taught by the old timers in belly and freefly and never had to pay for it..
On my dz, I am watching people get coaches ratings and now AFF ratings that I would not trust in a formation.
This has truly turned into a money issue with USPA. They found another way to pilfer the skydivers for more money. In return we have the people that can afford the ratings not truly earn them like in the old days.
In the past I had no problems trusting and believing in my AFF or Tandem instructors. Now I see kids with 500 jumps and a bank account getting thier ratings.
Don't get me wrong, I am sure there are plenty of good instructors graduating out there, I just feel the qualifications have been eased up on too much.
I would love to get my ratings, my problem is that I can't afford them or to take off my job for an entire week.

And why is it that USPA will not let you grandfather in by using the old BIC course? I was told by my S&TA that the BIC is useless now and that I would have to take the entire coaches course to carry on into AFF.

[diablopilot 2]

I think it's great. I think it is a good replacement for the BIC course, and that it starts a person towards getting their ratings. I believe load organizers, and coaches of any sort will lend themselves legitimacy by obtaining this simple rating. It's an effort to standardize what is taught, a problem which has plauged skydiving for a long time.

I don't see a down side to it either.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Ron 10]

How about an option for its a stupid program, a waste of time, and a waste of students money?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[sunshine 2]

Tis a good rating to have, but it's ridiculous that a 100 jump wonder can get the rating. The jump requirement really needs to be changed.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[kelel01 1]

I totally agree. Being 5 jumps away from 100, I know that I shouldn't be coaching ANYBODY. I'm atill learning the basics. I also know I have a slower learning curve, but it's not THAT slow.

Kelly

[Vallerina 2]

I don't like it because it prevented me from being a SL jumpmaster. Now, I'm not on a SL dz, so I have no desire to get a rating of any kind.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[flyangel2 2]

Well, you just opened a big ole can of worms on this post.

I'm going to get some popcorn, sit back and watch the fireworks.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Brains 2]

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Now I see kids with 500 jumps and a bank account getting thier ratings.

You're just mad cause i didn't take you on a tandem when i was getting that rating. but i did take your teammate.

I agree that it is an effort to standardize what is being taught, however i feel that it is much too easy to obtain. I passed the damn thing afterall. I believe to keep its legitimacy, it must be harder to obtain so that not just anyone who can afford to take the course passes.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[Brains 2]

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Swoopers are sexy!!

Hey sunny, you would just love IMGR2 then

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[Casie 0]

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Well, you just opened a big ole can of worms on this post.

I'm going to get some popcorn, sit back and watch the fireworks.

I totally agree with ya...................must find some popcorn!

~Porn Kitty
WARNING: Goldschlager causes extreme emotional outbursts!

[Snowflake 0]

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I passed the damn thing afterall.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!

[dbattman 0]

Does the rating have value? I imagine there's a redeeming quality or two in there. If you're looking at it from the angle of the experienced jumper knowing a few good drill dives there's some value to the rating. Do I need a three day course to learn a few drill dives? Not really.

The redeeming qualities of the coach rating stop when you start requiring paid coach jumps. I've never liked places that charge new jumpers packing class fees, coach fees, jumpmaster fees, etc etc. Any dropzone worth going to will have experienced people willing to hold a base for a dive out or practice docks WITHOUT the new jumper buying the slot and paying a fee. Am I saying they should do that all day? Heck no, but giving back a slot once or twice a month isn't going to bankrupt you. Besides- it's really, really fun.

If you've let yourself go long enough and need recurrency then I see justfication for buying a slot. When I was learning at the cessna clubs skydiving was about giving back. Our experienced RW groups break up to jump on two or three ways with the new jumpers on a regular basis. We hold free packing classes every few months where people volunteer. On cloudy days or during the slow weeks there's usually a few people practicing their pro pack with a watchful jumper nearby. People did this for me when I was starting out and I'll keep doing it for them for a long time.

As the saying goes- just my $0.02, your opinion my vary.

[Brains 2]

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GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!

What are you mad about snow, you got your coach rating too.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[AndyMan 7]

I think that unrated jumpers have a absolutely horrible track-record of teaching good skills to their less-experienced peers.

You do not have to look very far at any DZ to hear terrible advice being bandied about by people who simply do not know what their talking about. Often the worst advice comes from people with the most "experience". My favorite was at this and last years safety day, the chief load organizer with 5000+ jumps was recomending the 45 degree rule for separation - a technique that's been proven worthless.

I'm not sure that what we have now in the form of the coach rating is very good either, but anything is better than the way that it is right now, and I'm sure the rating will progress into something more useful over time.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[KrisFlyZ 0]

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I totally agree. Being 5 jumps away from 100, I know that I shouldn't be coaching ANYBODY. I'm atill learning the basics. I also know I have a slower learning curve, but it's not THAT slow.

Kelly

I am in the same boat as you. I do know people that can be good belly flying coaches at a 100 jumps. There is talent out there.

Kris.

[rehmwa 2]

Does anyone in here have any popcorn to share???

I seem to only have remembered to bring a big platter of chocolates and some cheesecake.



People unqualified to mentor have been doing that in the sport since day one. Now they have a way to get paid for it.

But just like before. "Buyer beware" or "there's a sucker born every minute". Eventually the marginal coaches will improve or quit and the good coaches will be recognized for their worth. Strangely enough, if too many people become coaches, it'll either get very cheap or; only the good coaches will survive (figuratively speaking). So either the program must go away or it must take off.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Casie 0]

YUMMY..................I'll trade ya my popcorn for some cheesecake!

~Porn Kitty
WARNING: Goldschlager causes extreme emotional outbursts!

[feuergnom 29]

ok - i'll play:

i was really eager to get the coach rating. but when class finally started i was more than pissed off & angry about what was actually taught. one the second day of rehearsing the bloody sim and the irm to the letter i had a headache and wanted to kick the instructors butt
the theory part boils down to one thing: say what ou are going to say, say it and once more state what you just said it's the padi-system on it's finest and designed for dummies. if it had been any other place than my dz i would have left the first evening.

what i liked about it was the actual jumping. the two evaluation jumps and the following debrief with the instructor taught me way more than two dull days of theory.

as for charging students: i won't charge them. if they pay me a ticket - fine. if they don't - that's ok also.

just my 0,02 euro-cents

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[skydiver30960 0]

I'm with a couple other people in the discussion already that when and where I started jumping, when I was off student status people helped me for free because when THEY were off student status people helped THEM for free. And, sure enough, at least until the coach rating came along, I jumped with newbies for free because it was done for me. Now that there is a coach rating I don't feel as comfortable doing this for free anymore (I'm an instructor) because I'm afraid I'll piss off the coaches who do this for jump money.

I think it's a valuable resource to guide AFF grads with only 8 jumps. I came through static line, and even though I may only have had the same "skill set" as an AFF grad, fact of the matter is when I got signed off student status I had something like thirty jumps, instead of just eight. I think that in itself made me a safer, more aware skydiver than if I had gone AFF. Again, it's not the greatest thing in the world when a lot of jumps were S/L and short delays, but they give you awareness and confidence that you just can't have after eight jumps.

BUT, that being said, it sucks that people have to pay big bucks to get coach jumps while their wallets are still empty from student status. It seems to me that what people are getting for a coach jump might be a little on the steep side. Ticket plus $20? Ticket plus $25? Hell, there are INSTRUCTORS not pulling down that kind of ching. If you're a badass RW, freefly, or canopy control guru then fine I'd be happy to pay slot plus $40 to pay you for your own investment in your expertise, but if we're talking USPA rated only with a couple hundred jumps, then buying the coach's slot and maybe paying for his packjob should be enough.

To sum it all up it's a good program and a good rating, but we need to make it cheaper for the end consumer (i.e. the poor bastard who just got off student status and is living off ramen noodles and TANG three meals a day in order to keep jumping)


Elvisio "taking my turn stirring the pot" Rodriguez

[Jarcie 0]

I don't know what the sport was like before the coach rating existed, but I've found the rating helpful. The coach rating let me know who was qualified to help while I was working on my A. It also gave me an alternative way to ask more experienced people to jump with me.

Did experienced people with ratings sometimes jump with me for free? Of course they did -- pretty often, in fact. Did they sometimes find me and ask me to jump with them? Sure. If I wanted to jump with a more experienced person and practice certain skills, was I willing to pay for it? Happily.

I'm not a bottomless pit of money, but I also know that it's not fair to ask experienced people with ratings to fun jump with newbies all day. If I wanted to jump four times, and I didn't want two or three of those to be solos, I could pay for one or two coach jumps. Or I might just pick up someone's slot. But I didn't feel like I had to wait for the experienced people to ask me to jump with them once or twice a day. I found it helpful to have an alternative.

Just my 2 cents, from a recent student's perspective.

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Now that there is a coach rating I don't feel as comfortable doing this for free anymore (I'm an instructor) because I'm afraid I'll piss off the coaches who do this for jump money.

I only had one person tell me that he didn't want to fun jump with me because he'd be taking business away from the other coaches. I thought that was pretty weird, and I still do. If you're not charging me, you're not stealing anyone's business. I don't know how things work at your DZ, of course, but if you're qualified and want to fun jump with the newbies, it seems strange that anyone would would get upset.

Edited to add: I agree that 100 jumps seems kind of low for a coach rating. I know I'm nowhere near ready to teach anyone. My coaches all had >300 jumps, most of them >500.

[JJohnson 0]

Did you think the BIC was a better rating to hold? I thought the course was easier than than the Coach course.
If you are going to have prereq rating to Tandem, SL or AFF do you think the BIC was better? If so, how?
The only benefit I can see to the Coach program is to the DZ. Let a lesser rating holder deal with teaching new jumpers and general portions of the FJC, freeing up the AFF and Tandem instructors to bring in money.
However I stand by the thought that we as jumpers should teach what we know freely to others. Nobody I know was born with 500 jumps. All I would ever ask in coaching would be for slot....unless the DZ objected. Also I am curious as to how much Coachs are really charging. I havn't seen anyone ask more than $10.00.....but then again I don't really pay much attention either.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[diablopilot 2]

So how did you feel about the BIC?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[flyangel2 2]

Just got to stir the pot don't you

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey