Have you been surprised? (serious question)

[mirochristie 0]

Yes. I have.
Totally shocked for the ones I thought had tons of jumps, and also for the ones I thought didn`t have any.

LiquidSky
@(^_^)@

[AggieDave 6]

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and also for the ones I thought didn`t have any.

That's one that really got me! There are a good number of folks here with multipul thousands of jumps and many ratings and a whole lot of experience. You wouldn't notice, since a lot of them hang out in the background, chiming in every once ina while.

There are a couple I'm thinking of right now that don't post much, but when you see who they are and what they've done, it definately leaves you in awe!

Needless to say, it motivates me seeing those guys and gals post, makes me want to do more, jump more, learn more...it just flat out motivates me.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[KrisFlyZ 0]

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I wasn't thinking about things like that, what was brought to mind was some recent posts about tandem ISP vs. traditional AFF where folks with only a few jumps were trying to tell someone else that they should do X "because its a better program" and shit like that.

That's what really got me thinking.

I did post on 'a thread' that spoke about the issue. (Tandem ISP vs Traditional AFF).

I mean no disrespect but your opinion or the opinion of a jumper with 100,000 jumps is only as good as mine. Coz its just that an opinion.

No offense intended, but that's where the phrase "hundred jump wonder" comes from. Are you honestly arguing that a person with 100 jumps, including a couple tandems, can opine on tandem instruction with the same level of authorty as a tandem instructor with 1000 jumps?

Kris............................................AggieDave
100 jumps...................................1000 jumps
a couple front-side tandems...........a couple hundred jumps as a tandem instructor

Now honestly...who's opinion on tandem instruction should carry more weight?

Blues,
Dave

I guess I needed to explain my point a bit more in that post. On an issue like whether Traditional AFF or Tandem ISP is better.

You will get opinions on both sides of the fence. And yes even if we polled only jumpers with over 3000 jumps. That is why we have the two methods of instruction.

Lets us take an example.

DropZone A: Follows AFF

Every instructor that works here, or a jumper(with more than a 1000 jumps) that jumps here will tell anyone(that wants to start jumping) that asks them that AFF is the best method of instruction.

DropZone B: Follows AFF

Every instructor that works here, or a jumper(with more than a 1000 jumps) that jumps here will tell anyone(that wants to start jumping) that asks them that Tandem ISP is the best method of instruction.

So who is right?

I am not giving advise on how to do a hook turn or even how to land or when to flare. I am giving(in case you missed it) my opinion on which progression is better for a newbie. The same as Dave or another jumper with many more jumps than Dave who has a different opinion.

Who has how many jumps does'nt matter in this case. That is why I call it trivial.

I don't even know if Dave was refering to me in the original post. That is not why I replied. I was trying to point out that it was trivial.

My first Jump was an AFF jump. I later moved to a Dz that had Tandem ISP and went thru that progression. I have experienced both forms of training(to a certain degree) as a newbie and 'advise' other newbies on which one is better if both are available.

I would'nt touch the debate if it was brought up by an experienced jumper with a 10 foot pole.

Kris

[livendive 8]

At my home DZ, we offer static line, IAD, and tandem-IAF. We hope to soon offer traditional AFF as well.

I am an instructor there, which one am I going to insist is "the best"?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[KrisFlyZ 0]

hey I am the "hundred jump wonder" what can I say
Kris.

[newsstand 0]

While they don't make it very well known Shiner got bought by Miller a few years back which is why it is now available all over. Quality went down at the same time.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[AggieDave 6]

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Lets us take an example.

DropZone A: Follows AFF

Every instructor that works here, or a jumper(with more than a 1000 jumps) that jumps here will tell anyone(that wants to start jumping) that asks them that AFF is the best method of instruction.

DropZone B: Follows AFF

Every instructor that works here, or a jumper(with more than a 1000 jumps) that jumps here will tell anyone(that wants to start jumping) that asks them that Tandem ISP is the best method of instruction.

So who is right?

Sort of, you're assuming a bit, though.

Take my home DZ for example. We offer traditional AFF, Tandem ISP and IAD. Not only do we offer, but we actually use all three methods. My observations have been made by watching students progress in each method over the past few years.

From my observations, those who went through the tandem progression do better in the AFF jumps, with less repeats and have better canopy control then those who did a traditional AFF program.

The instructors that teach within the ISP seem to view the ISP as a better program then the traditional AFF or S/L programs. It seems to me the instructors that are against the ISP are the ones that tend to view change as bad and are very negative to change. Sort of like those instructors that still view BOC student rigs are dangerous for students, etc.

That's just my observations, though. The point is, those instructors, whatever their opinion, have seen enough and done enough to have formed an opinion based on more then their own student progression.

Look at it this way. Kids (10yrs old-ish) tend to have similar religious beliefs as their parents, right? As they get older and experience more their views may change or they may stay the same. Eitherway, they've created their own opinion from experience, not from what was told to them. Same thing with jumpers on a lot of issues.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

Miller didn't buy out Shiner Bock, here's the scoop from the website.

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I heard a rumor that the Spoetzl Brewery has been bought out by a giant corporation.
Here's the truth: the Spoetzl Brewery is the oldest independent brewery in Texas. Since 1989, the Spoetzl Brewery has been privately owned by The Gambrinus Company of San Antonio, Texas. Gambrinus imports Corona beer (and other Modelo brands from Mexico) to the eastern half of the U.S. and imports Moosehead Beer (from Canada) nationwide. Gambrinus also owns the BridgePort Brewing Co. in Portland, Oregon.

Gambrinus provides sales and marketing support for the Spoetzl Brewery, but our brewmaster (Mr. John Hybner) is responsible for the daily operations at the brewery. He oversees every batch, still handcrafted by the fine folks (pardon our pride) in Shiner, Texas.

I'm willing to bet the beer from Shiner tastes better near Shiner, due to shelf life, shipping times, more environment changes during transit for further locations, etc. That's just a guess on my part, though.

Eitherway, Shiner, IMHO, is one of the best beers you can get without getting German imports.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[livendive 8]

***Since 1989, the Spoetzl Brewery has been privately owned by The Gambrinus Company of San Antonio, Texas. Gambrinus imports Corona beer (and other Modelo brands from Mexico) to the eastern half of the U.S. and imports Moosehead Beer (from Canada) nationwide. Gambrinus also owns the BridgePort Brewing Co. in Portland, Oregon.

[freeflir29 0]

Yes.........I seem to actually be a loser with very few jumps that spends much of my time talking out of my ass.

[AggieDave 6]

I've had Whicked Ale, pretty good. As for those others, I've had Bridgeport, that's pretty good as well. Haven't had the other two, I'll see if I can get my hands on those.

I'll give every beer a chance. Haven't really found a beer that I *won't* drink, but I have some that I'd *rather* drink.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

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Yes.........I seem to actually be a loser with very few jumps that spends much of my time talking out of my ass.

Its not so much that that bothers me, its the sexual preference...or species preference actually, that bothers me...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[freeflir29 0]

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.or species preference actually, that bothers me..

I'm so discriminated against. I mean.....why can't 2 men.....I mean a man and his sheep be wed?

[AggieDave 6]

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mean a man and his sheep be wed?

From my understanding you either have to move to AK I think maybe Utah.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[tandembrent 0]

my perception is this; dz.com is the place where more disinformation and just plane crap tumbles off the fingers of people that can't tell me the difference between a boc and a rol might be!

~~~~Green grass and high clouds forever~~~~
no matter where you go, there you are!

[Amanduh 0]

I only have 26 jumps and I spoke on the forum of traditional AFF vs. Tandem progression....But it was just my opinion..I personally liked having someone there to instruct and teach me up until 20 jumps. Someone whom dedicated ALL of his time...My instructor was THE BEST!! I wouldn't PERSONALLY like doing 7 or 8 jumps (AFF) and then be alone or having to pay a coach to jump w/ you up until your 25...just my opinion though hehe

[Ron 10]

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Yeah, and I'm so embarressed about that that I wish I could somehow go back and time and slap my 100-jump-wonder self around!

The funny thing is when you did that, and others did what you are doing now....You thought they were assholes....

Now you think like they did...Man that kills me

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AggieDave 6]

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The funny thing is when you did that, and others did what you are doing now....You thought they were assholes....

Now you think like they did...Man that kills me

Yup. That's life, though. I also think it has to do with a bit of growing up I've done, I was 20 when I started jumping, now obviously I'm now only 24, but quite a bit has changed. I'm sure by the time I'm 30 I'll look back and shake my head at my 24yr old self, as I will probably do at my 1000 jump self in another 2000 jumps.

That's just the natural progression of life.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Ron 10]

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Tandem has a ton of advantages other than cost too. But I still believe many DZs REQUIRE tandems because of the money they generate compared to other methods. Your DZ may be different and that's fine... don't take it personally. If a student with a pilots license and 50 hours of tunnel time showed up, do you think they should HAVE to do a tandem?

If thats what the Instructors want then yes.

No amount of training will prepare you for freefall. Oherwise we could just hand rigs to anyone that has a pilots license. You didn't need radio help since you knew about patterns...You had a good body position due to tunnel time. That makes you BETTER prepared, but not prepared to leave an aircraft in flight.

I have seen well trained people just flat out freak out in freefall. And I have seen some people with almost no training I think I could have just handed thema rig and told them the handles to pull and they would have been fine.

Its hard to tell. A tandem will help you know.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I did post on 'a thread' that spoke about the issue. (Tandem ISP vs Traditional AFF).

I mean no disrespect but your opinion or the opinion of a jumper with 100,000 jumps is only as good as mine. Coz its just that an opinion.

While you can have an opinion...It is an opinion from someone with less experience...And it should be listen to with that in mind.

You right to have an opinion is the same...

The weight that opinion carries is not.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Yup. That's life, though. I also think it has to do with a bit of growing up I've done, I was 20 when I started jumping, now obviously I'm now only 24, but quite a bit has changed. I'm sure by the time I'm 30 I'll look back and shake my head at my 24yr old self, as I will probably do at my 1000 jump self in another 2000 jumps.

That's just the natural progression of life.

The funny thing is I think we had this talk before...Except you didn't agree then.....

Ya think you might think different when you are 31 with 7 more years in the sport and 2,000 more jumps...I do.

You didn't back then....And I get more PM's from people who once called me an ass telling me they now understand...Man that is funny....

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[happythoughts 0]

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I have seen well trained people just flat out freak out in freefall.

Brain lock. That is the one reason that I recommend that everyone does a tandem before freefall. They can find out if they are going to be ok mentally, while in the care of someone experienced.

Scenario one, everything is going well, but people sometimes freak out and do weird stuff.

Scenario two, everything is not going well, they are in an emergency situation and brainlocked. They have 5 seconds to figure out their options and they are panicked.

[pilotdave 0]

You are right that tandem has an advantage over AFF because some people freak out on their first jump. But you've been around a long time... Am I wrong that tandem has a cost benefit over AFF? Am I wrong that some DZs promote/require tandems based on profit? And don't you think SOME people have a better idea than others how they will react to freefall? Some people are gonna freak out, others aren't. Were you a freaker when you started?

And I didn't have any tunnel time before I started...that was just an example.

Dave

[PhreeZone 20]

Tandem rig = $10,000
Jump master = $25
Slots * 2 = $40

Compare that to:

AFF rig = $5000
Jumpmaster *2 = $60-70
Slots *3 = $60

In the short run if you exclude the rig cost tandems are better. But when you have to make an extra $5000 in about $50 chunks thats an extra 100 jumps per rig just to pay off the equipment. Now you are getting into the profit range. On AFF you hit the profit range much sooner.

Tandems are promoted since not everyone wants to spend the 8 hours in ground class for one jump. America is a society of pay now play now people that hate to wait on anything and want to do it all now.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Ron 10]

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You are right that tandem has an advantage over AFF because some people freak out on their first jump.

Then whats the problem? Whats better the SAFER way or the cheaper way?

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Am I wrong that tandem has a cost benefit over AFF?

Nope, but S/L is even more profitable...One Instructor and 3 or more students.

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Am I wrong that some DZs promote/require tandems based on profit?

Don't know...I don't know all the DZ's around. I would bet that some require the tandem since some people will only ever do the one jump...why waste 8 hours of ground school on them if they are never going to return and just want to do it once?

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And don't you think SOME people have a better idea than others how they will react to freefall?

Yeah, but as an instructor how can I ensure that you will not freakout and kill yourself?

Hey if I ran the world we would be doing:

A tandem to give people a taste and weed out the ones that are never going to continue.

4 Static lines to work on canopy control and pulling.

10-20 minutes of tunnel time to work on body position and practice pulls.

5 single JM aff jumps.

15 coached jumps.

1 live cutaway with a tersh rig.

I think the students would be much better than any other program available...But hey I don't run this place.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334