Demand for more regulation by FAA

[stratostar 5]

I was in the middle of writing the following reply when Bill Von cleaned up the thread over in Incidents fourm not wanting to piss off Bill Von, I decide to post it here, under safety & training, where IMO it belongs, after all to be safe you have to train yourself.

I have made quit clear a number of times my views on corner cutting MX & AC op's as well as DZ Op's. They are very much inline with 737drivers point of view as well as a few other jumpship operators & pilots.

However like all good debates, there are a few points we don't agree on the following is my reply to 737drivers posting.

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In this forum I am providing my own personal opinion, you can do what you like with it.

But I feel if you sit back... detach yourself and any personal feelings from recent events... then much of what I say will ring true.

Fucking loud ass ring making jumpers so deaf over the years their eye sight starts to fail too, next thing you know the skies are full of deaf & blind leading a new crop of lemings.

While yes what much of what you say is true about the industry as a whole, that has little value in FFE topic at this point. If you have inside info about FFE you will be attacked regardless what your profile says, but if your going to "out it" then have proof.

Your post are not helping to bring to this thread, the how, what & why post from those who made it out that day or owners. I would have been surprised to see a post like that, but was hoping I would, due to your inflaming I doubt we will.

I agree with most of everything you have said, where we part ways in like minded views is, 1. the FAA. & 2. More regulation

1. If you really are a 737 pilot, I find it hard to believe you fear the FAA so much and think they "flex power". I can see where as a comercial person who is used to them big city fancy type aerodromes, you might get a number of visits or have them FAA inspectors in the tower and out on the ramp asking around, "may vee sees your papers, pleze".

But out here in the real world (fly over country) things changed on Sept. 11th. 2001! There was a couple operators who were getting a aweful lot of those "little green slips" the FAA mails you for each count their going after you for, but those towel heads on 9-11 played a major role in changing how the FAA works.

Just in the few years before 9-11 as the "count slips" were amounting to a small fortune in lawyers fees, the FAA kept saying..... "we're not cop's & we can't place them under surveillance 7 days a week theres no buget for that".

I was told a number of times by a CVG FSI that just getting the ok to spend the gas money to ramp check or show up for an unanounced inspection was like pulling teeth due to buget.

Part 91 skydiving Op's was at the bottom of the food chain and as long as the body count stayed low everything is fine. Yea sure the FAA FSI's would pop in for a visit a few times a year, but funny thing is most the time they called first to make an appointment.

Here we are after 9-11 and the FAA has shifted their whole focus to guys like you who are hauling walking meat in mass and making sure that my 87 year old grandmother isn't sneeking on her exploding shoes, their buget is even more tighter, while having more funding now, due to the current commercial crunch and user fees & funding debate.

The FAA is not going to stand up at attition because of some silly lawsuit or two or 3 or 4 from skydiving AC crash, they don't care, don't have the time or money to give a shit, that some part 91 DZO is buying K-1 to burn and getting the logbooks signed off by kool-aid, not using safety wire on D-18 cowlings or running past TBO's, using fake STC for Mogas, flying without transponders or a working radio and dropping jumpers, home made prop repairs and yadda, yadda the list goes on and on of the kinds of corner cutting bullshit in skydiving, it's the industry's dirty little secret that USPA and DZO's have joined forces to keep in the dark & hide it from public view as much as possible, they call it "mainstream".

They put on this happy little face and march in slap a few wrist and pull a GM membership & rating or two with a write up of general topic in parachutist and say to the FAA, "see we on top of it" this keeps the FAA happy as a pig in shit to spend their time fighting the terror threat and not dealing with a bunch of hilljack retards who jump out of rustbuckets with wings attached.

And as long as another king air don't fall out of the sky onto a house or school full of kids the general public is not going to care nor is the FAA. Now put a skydiver into the cockpit window and bring down a MD 80 full of people in X-keys NJ and then you'll see some real action.

2.More regulation All that would do is raise my taxes more and price jump tickets out of reach for the avg, joe and jumping as we know it would be over.

The easy fix is to just fund the enforcement the current set of rules we have and buget the the money to do it instead of bailing out the airlines, again, unlike now or the last x number years or so.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[737driver 0]

Good points you make there.

Something needs to happen bring about change.

We both agree enforcement needs to happen.. and the USPA are not the ones to do it.

It needs to come from the FAA, if some drop zones have to close then... too bad.

If only the bigger ones keep going, and are forced to spend money on training and looking after their aircraft then that is fine by me.

Anyone that disagrees, put yourself in the shoes of the family that has lost someone because not enough money was spent on keeping the aircraft blue side up.

[tombuch 0]

OK, I'll jump into this one very briefly, I hope.

There is a continuing conflict between more regulation and less. USPA advocates less regulation, or at most, the same level of regulation. Every time FAA raises a finger to add oversight USPA pushes back. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just that it happens.

In the past it has been the overwhelming position of skydivers that we want USPA to keep FAA away, and USPA has certainly done an effective job of that. They have, without question, represented our interests well in government affairs.

I hear from some jumpers that they no longer know what's happening on the aviation side of the DZ, or that they can't know, and they seem to want FAA to take that up in defense of skydiver safety. That's a relatively new position in the skydiving world, and as it takes hold we need to keep our industry representatives informed of our perceived interests.

If our position as a constituency is changing, and we now want more FAA oversight, we need to make our USPA regional directors aware of that position. I'm not saying that change in desire is happening at a significant level, but pointing out that we each need to evaluate what kind of advocacy we want from USPA and then offer direction as members.

If the recent aircraft issues have drawn your attention and you want FAA to have a greater hand in protecting jumpers from DZ operators and pilot, then contact your USPA Regional Director or the National Directors. You will find them all listed at: http://www.uspa.org/contact/bod.htm.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[diablopilot 2]

Parallel to the USPA's efforts to keep the FAA at bay, the USPA needs to keep those it represents at bay.

Education of jumpers as to the dangers, and regulations of skydiving aviation, and discipline of operators know to be in violation must be a priority.

The USPA will become unsuccessful in keeping the FAA at bay if it can't police it's own.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Colson 0]

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Anyone that disagrees, put yourself in the shoes of the family that has lost someone because not enough money was spent on keeping the aircraft blue side up.

Then you end up with lawsuits because it didnt say specifically in the POH that running out of fuel might cause a crash, or trying to get the cessna caravan revised to prohibit flight into known ice because one crashed due to ice.....You seem to want to add as many specific rules as possible in hopes that it will prevent accidents...it wont. It will just drive the people who already follow the rules out of business. You think people who dont follow rules are going to care about new ones??

ALL the rules required are in place, but not being enforced...The FAA should NOT have to sent inspectors to the field on a regular basis. YOU as a FAA certificate holder, PILOT, RIGGER, MECHANIC, ETC are just as much resposible for enforcement as the FAA. What does this mean? It means telling somebody they need a wake up call from the FAA....piss them off,make a report.

If you see something in violation of the FARS, and take no action, then you are just as guilty as the person who is in violation as far as I am concerned.

Of course nobodys going to do that because then they dont get to jump or end up persona non grata.

If the FAA is going to kick somebodys ass I wish it would be with the current rules and not by just adding another FAR subpart.

[stratostar 5]

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If the recent aircraft issues have drawn your attention and you want FAA to have a greater hand in protecting jumpers from DZ operators and pilot, then contact your USPA Regional Director or the National Directors. You will find them all listed at: http://www.uspa.org/contact/bod.htm.

USPA and that bunch that run the show can kiss my fucking white honky ass & I will NEVER again assist, work with, help out, provide statemments & logbooks, videotape or other documents to USPA or any USPA RD, BOD, or special investagator, I will bypass all that unprotected anal sex and deal with the stright FAA & DOT only!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[737driver 0]

Does sound the best idea...

As well the USPA have 0 power over aircraft operations.

[kallend 2,026]

If operators don't follow existing laws, why expect them to follow more stringent laws?

Excerpt from NTSB accident report follows:

AFTER TAKEOFF, THE AIRPLANE WAS SEEN AT LOW ALTITUDE TRAILING SMOKE FROM THE LEFT ENGINE. WITNESSES SAW THE WINGS 'TIPPING' BACK AND FORTH, THEN A WING DROPPED AND HIT THE GROUND. EXAMINATION REVEALED THAT A SUPERCHARGER BEARING HAD FAILED IN THE LEFT ENGINE. THE LEFT ENGINE HAD BEEN RECENTLY INSTALLED BY NON-CERTIFICATED PERSONNEL AFTER BEING INACTIVE FOR 18 YRS WITHOUT PRESERVATION. THE AIRPLANE HAD FLOWN ABOUT 184 HRS SINCE THE LAST ANNUAL INSPECTION; NO RECORD OF SUBSEQUENT 100-HR INSPECTION. THE LEFT PROP BLADES WERE FOUND IN AN INTERMEDIATE POSITION BETWEEN THE OPERATING RANGE AND THE FEATHERED POSITION. THE LEFT PROP WAS CHANGED SEVERAL WEEKS PRIOR TO THE ACCIDENT. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT THE LEFT PROP HAD EVER BEEN SUCCESSFULLY CYCLED TO THE FULL FEATHER POSITION. THE OPERATOR AND PILOTS WERE NOT AWARE OF HAMILTON STANDARD SB 657 RECOMMENDING FULL-FEATHER CHECKS EVERY 30 DAYS. LEFT PROP FEATHERING MOTOR RELAYS NOT RECOVERED. ALL 11 PARACHUTISTS WERE FOUND IN CENTER PART OF FUSELAGE; NO EVIDENCE OF RESTRAINT USEAGE.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

INADEQUATE MAINTENANCE AND INSPECTION BY THE OPERATOR WHICH RESULTED IN AN ENGINE POWER LOSS DURING THE CRITICAL TAKEOFF PHASE OF FLIGHT. IN ADDITION, THE PILOT DID NOT, OR WAS UNABLE TO, ATTAIN A FULL-FEATHER POSITION ON THE LEFT ENGINE PROPELLER, WHICH WOULD HAVE MOST LIKELY ENABLED THE AIRPLANE TO SUSTAIN MINIMUM CONTROL AIRSPEED.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[737driver 0]

The main point here is that FAR 135 or similar rules created for skydiving would provide regulatory oversight. Including a POI.

So these things SHOULD be picked up before they result in loss of life.

[livendive 8]

When the government sticks its nose into things, the additional costs typically outweigh the gains. I'd like to think the USPA is the right entity, but not as long as they're the whipping boys of the group members. So that leaves us, the jumpers. You vote with your wallet and I'll vote with mine, and neither of us should try to extort money from the other. My family knows that *I* am assuming the risks when I climb into a jump plane, and that it is my fervent wish that they not try to sue anyone should my choice turn out to be poor. I hope that doesn't happen, but events in the last year have kept me honest about the possibility. I find my current risk exposure to be preferable to no exposure at all (due to the sport becoming unaffordable).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[737driver 0]

The trouble is...

Lot's of jumpers and more importantly tandem students don't understand the dangers and risks.

They don't know what regulations are in place, so of course they can't know if a drop zone is operating in accordance with the law.

The USPA have no teeth... so cant really do anything.

Because of the lack of regulation and oversight when you climb aboard a jump airplane you have no way of knowing if it is properly maintained.

You have no way of knowing what training the pilot has taken with regard to jump operations, at the moment such training is not even required by law.

[Colson 0]

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Because of the lack of regulation and oversight when you climb aboard a jump airplane you have no way of knowing if it is properly maintained.

What a joke, have you looked around at an airport for more then a minute?

Ive seen pissed off line monkeys ram jaming planes around with tugs, people putting 1200lbs in containers labeled 600lbs max because it fit, maintenance that is totally illegal, and looked like 15th century battle surgery, forged documents, missed inspections, the list goes on. ALL of this was being done at MAJOR HUBS, INFRONT of this oversight you speak of, of course as long as the people up in the terminal dont see it its all good and they go on their ignorant way.

Of course theres always somebody sent out to count the number of turns per inch on the safety wire or something useless like that, got to have that oversight.

[737driver 0]

Your very bitter...

The US has almost the best safety record in the world... how do you think they got that?

From learning from previous mistakes... taking on board accident reports and recommendations.

Passing down knoledge over the years in the flight department.

No it's not perfect but it sure as hell is better than the attitude in the DZ world.

[DSE 5]

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Because of the lack of regulation and oversight when you climb aboard a jump airplane you have no way of knowing if it is properly maintained.

Actually, I know a *lot* more about the maintenance of our jump aircraft than I do about the many aircraft I fly each month with major airlines.
Two aircraft with a major airline that have had to be diverted in the last 10 years with me on them, and have had an EM120 flame out an engine, returning to the airport. Then there are the numerous go-arounds due to landing gear problems, and I'll never forget the Continental flight when the entire overhead luggage system fell from the ceiling on landing (fortunately there were safety chains, of which only one broke).
You appear to have an agenda here, and that's fine. Most of us do. Yours seems to be more sinister.

I'd like to see a comparison of jump aircraft flight numbers to commercial flight numbers; I'd guess jump plane percentages are very solid with far less oversight.

[737driver 0]

There is no system for oversight of jump operations at all.

Every other commercial air transportation has things like POI's and inspection procedures.

My agenda is sinister? For wanting to start debate, with a view to making the sport safer for all of those who take part in it?

Not to mention other users of the nations airspace, and those living in the airport traffic pattern at airports with a dropzone.

If that is sinister... then well it's just laughable.

[diverdriver 5]

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Because of the lack of regulation and oversight when you climb aboard a jump airplane you have no way of knowing if it is properly maintained.

Actually, I know a *lot* more about the maintenance of our jump aircraft than I do about the many aircraft I fly each month with major airlines.
Two aircraft with a major airline that have had to be diverted in the last 10 years with me on them, and have had an EM120 flame out an engine, returning to the airport. Then there are the numerous go-arounds due to landing gear problems, and I'll never forget the Continental flight when the entire overhead luggage system fell from the ceiling on landing (fortunately there were safety chains, of which only one broke).
You appear to have an agenda here, and that's fine. Most of us do. Yours seems to be more sinister.

I'd like to see a comparison of jump aircraft flight numbers to commercial flight numbers; I'd guess jump plane percentages are very solid with far less oversight.

Actually, we have a much worse record than commercial aviation. Comparing less with Airlines and more with like aircraft we have double the accident rate of general aviation and a HIGHER percentage of crashes than flight instruction flights and part 135 flights. We've been down this discussion path before. Skydiving does NOT stack up.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[DSE 5]

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There is no system for oversight of jump operations at all.

Every other commercial air transportation has things like POI's and inspection procedures.
.

Exactly my point. I've had several personal incidents on commercial aircraft (granted, I fly more than most) yet no skydiving incidents. I'm not saying skydiving is safer, but rather pointing out that in spite of all the regulation and inspection, commercial flights still have engines fall off, wheels collapse, broken parts, missed runways,etc. I haven't got a clue what the cargo operations are really like, other than I've seen a few belly in at the general aviation area of the local airport. From my limited knowledge, it sure doesn't seem to me that new regulations are going to help what problems there are.
As far as any agenda, I don't know what yours is. But it's clear you have one, and it's one that has obviously raised suspicion.

[737driver 0]

Well... i see your a moderator..

If you can check my inbox on here.. you will see how many messages I have had thanking my for bring all of this to light...

From people who feel they cant speak out against the community.

Not in an offensive way, but if you speak to anyone in the aviation business and try to make the argument skyding aircraft are safer than commercial aviation (Airlines, 135, air medical, flight training) they will roll over laughing.

Skydiving has for a long time been the black sheep of the aviation community... and it is time that people took a stand and said enough is enough it is time to get our house in order.

This needs to start drop zone by drop zone.

The culture of complacency and acceptance of crashes as part of the sport needs to be eradicated.

[Colson 0]

Im not bitter Im just calling it like I see it. Regardless of how the 135/121 safety record compairs to DZ ops doesnt change the fact that as far as Im concerned the same maintenance issues you bash DZ's over happen all the time to them even under the nose of the FAA.

Do I want more regulation, NO.

Do I want more enforcement, YES.

If I call up the FSDO over joe blows aiplane that has more inop stickers then instruments including those required for day VFR, I EXPECT them to get their ass down there and have a look as they are legally required to do so.....Yet cant seem to find the time.

I can be labeled a horses ass for killing the fun and thats fine, if they cant have fun and be professional then thats too bad.

I do not support the creation of new rules that will be ignored by the same idiots, while causing a straight up DZO to quit.

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Passing down knoledge over the years in the flight department.

Most DZ ops have been and probably will always be the starting point for a pilot, that means low time. You cant expect a pilot fresh out of the sunshine states finest mills to have thousands of hours flying jumpers. You also cannot expect them to build that kind of time as some kind of SIC jumper pilot. That then leaves training time as the only solution.

But who and how? how much? all good questions that take effort and support to get a solution, and it hasnt happened yet because people dont seem to feel the benefit is worth the cost.

[737driver 0]

My idea behind something along the lines of 135...

Will require the FAA to have a surveillance program over the dropzone and make sure.. or at least go someway to make sure that rules and regulations are adhered to.

Your comment about the inop stickers brought a smile to my face.... I think at most DZ's if you saw them at all they would be used to tape something up around a door..... NOT to placard something as required by a FAR

[DSE 5]

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Well... i see your a moderator..

If you can check my inbox on here.. you will see how many messages I have had thanking my for bring all of this to light...

Nice we've got a saviour.
I ain't buying.

I'm not comparing commercial to skydiving by numbers. My point is, with all the regulation and control, the government can't keep commercial flights from all the problems they have. You honestly believe they can improve the safety record of skydiving operations? Without grossly increasing the cost of jump tickets??

[737driver 0]

If you had read everything I have said....

I said jump tickets will go up... Some drop zones will go under.

But it will save lives.

Sooner or later it will happen, I just hope people get wise and start calling things out at their DZ.

If the problem is not fixed call the FSDO

[Colson 0]

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Will require the FAA to have a surveillance program over the dropzone and make sure.. or at least go someway to make sure that rules and regulations are adhered to.

That is already in place, it is called the certificate holder.... Suprise, if you've got an FAA ticket in you pocket, you are actually responsible for something.

The regs are there, the FAA is there, and they are trying to do their job. The last Inspector I talked with gave me the old "you guys in the field are the best and first line of enforcement".

Of course overtime that has degenerated to "look at the freedom we have". New rules just are not going to fix that.

[737driver 0]

But this does not work....

Have you ever heard of CRM Company Resource Management?

The kinds of incidents are the responsibility of many people not just the pilot.

But the DZ has no certification from the FAA and therefor no oversight.

If it was as simple as you say... then why do airlines have to have air carrier certificates and POI's not to mention air carrier surveillance procedures?

Yes the guy has a commercial license, but in many cases he is "green" and vulnerable to being bullied by the DZ, this might be his first flying job in the commercial world.

This is just another reason why we need the authority to be able to keep a closer eye on the DZ, prevent unsafe practices from developing and ensure pilot training / maintenance is in order and above board.

[Colson 0]

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Have you ever heard of CRM Company Resource Management?

Uh...The CRM I have had beaten into me for years is "CREW/COCKPIT RESOURCE MANAGEMENT"

Never heard "company" used....

so who are you a check pilot for, FYI I know plenty of 737 pilots, many check airmen, not confined to one major, so be honest. Chances are they would know you.