Rain and Clouds

[kevinsa 0]

How, why and too what extent do they make skydiving unsafe for an inexperienced skydiver?

Thanks

[IanHarrop 42]

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How, why and too what extent do they make skydiving unsafe for an inexperienced skydiver?

Thanks

Rain drops fall at about 7 mph.... you fall at 120 mph... rain hurts

Clouds might have a silver lining you could run into.... an air plane

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[redlegphi 0]

Well, clouds mean you can't see the ground, possibly from altitudes below your opening altitude. This makes it impossible to spot accurately and assume a good landing pattern. Also, the difference between light rain with moderate winds and a full out thunderstorm can be a tiny little increment of time. In short, they make skydiving unsafe for just about everybody, not just inexperienced skydivers.

[AndyMan 7]

Rain hurts. It really is that simple.


Clouds, well - that's more complicated.

Going back a few years, before GPS - jumping through clouds was a very risky endeavor, because you could not see where you were going to land. Pilots thought they could compensate for this by working with Air Traffic Control, and this generally worked. It worked pretty well until this one time, where ATC got confused, and told a pilot he was over the DZ, when in fact the pilot was over Lake Erie. This jump did not end well.

GPS has largely taken care of that specific problem - it's unlikely that you'll be dropped over Lake Erie on a cloudy day. However, we're still in the position of depending on Air Traffic Control to keep us safe from other aircraft. Additionally, federal law dictates that we can not trust ATC for clearance, we must use visual contact to determine when it's safe to jump. It is impossible to visually clear the airspace on a cloudy day, so it's impossible to legally make a safe jump through heavy cloud.

Light cloud can be dealt with, by using spotters on the ground, so a student should not panic if there's a slight layer of haze, or clouds that have to be flown around.

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[redlegphi 0]

I would also point out that just because GPS can tell the pilot where you are doesn't mean the GPS is telling the pilot that you're at a good spot to jump. Just because a pilot marked a location as a good spot on one day doesn't mean the same spot is good on a day when the winds have changed. And, as you pointed out, it won't tell you where the airplane below you in the clouds is. In short, trust your eyes, not your gizmos.

[happythoughts 0]

Rain hurts, it is only an inconvenience.

You might hit what you cannot see under the cloud.

A passing aircraft, or another skydiver.

Example - a group gets out before you. At breakoff, the closest person tracks towards you, under a cloud, and dumps. They are vertically stationary compared to you because you are traveling at 120mph, and you hit them. Imagine.

[councilman24 37]

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so it's impossible to legally make a safe jump through heavy cloud.

resonse written for U.S. Not U.K. My appologies.
Let me expound. It is illegal to jump through heavy cloud, light cloud, next to a cloud and withing 2000' horizontally of a cloud and within 500' below a cloud. (The 1000' above is silly) Distances go up at 10000' MSL. Doesn't matter if you can do it, if I've done it, if the pilot can give you a good GPS spot or if someone tells you there are no other aircraft. You, the pilot, and the DZO are responsibile for the regulation violation. Doesn't matter on experience.

Now, do we ever do anything illegal? Of course not. (emoticon omitted, keeping a straight face)

Rain? Gets your gear wet and hurts.

Not to mention the wind that may come with it.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[speedy 0]

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Rain? Gets your gear wet and hurts.

Where I jump, the rain is generaly frozen and hurts even more.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[kevinsa 0]

Im quite a newbie and rather than pestering the DZ on the phone every weekend, im trying to work out whether the weather (that sounds odd :p) is jumpable or not.


Would you say around 10mph winds are on the borderline as well for students?

[speedy 0]

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Would you say around 10mph winds are on the borderline as well for students?

With just 2 jumps yes (depends on where you are jumping), with 10 jumps it is maybe less of a problem.

The best thing is to go to the DZ and check it out with your instructors. Hey, you need to spend time to collect the experience. Some of this time is spent on the ground waiting for the right conditions at the DZ.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[grannyinthesky 0]

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Would you say around 10mph winds are on the borderline as well for students?

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With just 2 jumps yes (depends on where you are jumping), with 10 jumps it is maybe less of a problem.

The best thing is to go to the DZ and check it out with your instructors. Hey, you need to spend time to collect the experience. Some of this time is spent on the ground waiting for the right conditions at the DZ

Yep, go anyway and get to know people. I think I've been spent more days at the dz the last couple of months not jumping than when i've been able to jump. I learn a lot from talking to jumpers and watching them as they land and so on. I've also spent time learning to pack. It's never a waste

"safety first... and What the hell.....
safety second, Too!!! " ~~jmy

POPS #10490

[kevinsa 0]

I spent today waiting around all day

However, I can't go up to the DZ that often. It takes around 50 mins to get there and my parents aren't too keen on driving me out there without a result

Also, it's quite hard for someone my age to socialise with all of these skydiving pros :D.

Most people look at me and think im a kid.

[grannyinthesky 0]

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I spent today waiting around all day

However, I can't go up to the DZ that often. It takes around 50 mins to get there and my parents aren't too keen on driving me out there without a result

Also, it's quite hard for someone my age to socialise with all of these skydiving pros :D.

Most people look at me and think im a kid.

It takes me about an hour and $25 for gas with the SUV I drive, but I've found it well worth the time. Get to know those skydiving pro's. You'd probably be surprised at how willing they are to talk about their skydiving experiences. Skydiving is about more than just jumping out of planes. One of the best parts is the people. You might see about learning to pack for the days you can't jump, too. You don't have to have your A license to be a packer.

"safety first... and What the hell.....
safety second, Too!!! " ~~jmy

POPS #10490

[DBCOOPER 5]

Let me expound. It is illegal to jump through heavy cloud, light cloud, next to a cloud and withing 2000' horizontally of a cloud and within 500' below a cloud. (The 1000' above is silly)

Is that the rule in the UK where his profile says he is from?

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[SuperGirl 0]

Like everyone said, rain hurts. I just want to point out that it hurts even when you're wearing a full face helmet. I tried that once... no fun. Your neck still gets exposed when you're arched in freefall, and ouch!!

Then your gear gets all wet... which means you have to hang it out to dry, and make sure it gets plenty of air, because if it dries in a small bundle on the floor, it might smell bad afterwards. Lines like to shrink from water, too.

[idrankwhat 0]

1) Rain stings.
2) Spotting is difficult and spotting includes checking for other aircraft.
3) It's illegal unless you jump with at a minimum a Heading Indicator, Attitude Indicator, Clock, Altimeter, Radio, Alternator/generator, Turn Coordinator and I'd suggest a transponder as well.
4) You're risking your jump pilot's job security.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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BPA Ops manual section 8

3. CLOUD AND VISIBILITY

3.1. Cloud

Parachutists may not leave the aircraft if, at the point of exit, the ground between the opening point and the intended landing area is not visible.

That does not to say you can't go through cloud during your actual jump of course... your fall doesn't necessarily follow the exact same path as your line of sight - as such you may legitimately be able to see from the plane the ground between your opening and landing points but then proceed to fall through cloud to physically get to your opening point... at least in some circumstances.

It doesn't follow however that it's an especially good idea though, even if it's technically legal.

[AndyMan 7]

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Would you say around 10mph winds are on the borderline as well for students?

The USPA limit for student jumps is 14 mph. Many DZ's have waivers on file that allow them to perform student jumps at 16 mph. Obviously these rules apply to the US, I don't know about the UK.

I wouldn't have any problems with a student jumping at 10 mph.

Even if the forcasted winds are higher than 14, I would suggest you head out to the DZ. I can guarantee that you won't jump if you stay home, but unless the winds are forecasted to be crazy high there's always a chance if you're at the DZ.

The most common wind pattern in Chicago is that they're usually gentle in the morning, pick up around noon and die down around sunset. Even if the winds are forecasted to be high, there will be times during the day where all students can jump.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[skytash 0]

problem with his closest dropzone is that the winds are often higher than free met records show. It's on a hill and we get some howlers through that the surrounding towns and villages don't even register. Other times we have complete calm and everyone around us has lots of wind (fnar fnar).

Someone who knows the Ops Manual better can find the bit about wind limits, or you can go and have a look on the BPA website www.bpa.org.uk.

The problem towards the latter part of this week-end was more the low cloud. I think there were only around 4 - 6 lifts in total over the 4 days of the long week-end, and one group decided that they didn't even want to take off 'cos it would cost them the jump ticket once wheels were off and they didn't want to risk not being able to see the ground from the plane and land in the plane again.

And then there was the lift that circled quite some time to find a hole in the clouds - it was cold up there (and before anyone warns about hypoxia, we circled low enough and only climbed the last bit once we could see where we were going to jump)

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[tetra316 0]

As mentioned rain hurts. Also I've found the wetter your canopy, the quicker and harder the opening at terminal

[JohnMitchell 16]

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I would also point out that just because GPS can tell the pilot where you are doesn't mean the GPS is telling the pilot that you're at a good spot to jump. Just because a pilot marked a location as a good spot on one day doesn't mean the same spot is good on a day when the winds have changed. And, as you pointed out, it won't tell you where the airplane below you in the clouds is. In short, trust your eyes, not your gizmos.

If you know what the GPS fix is for your DZ and the winds aloft, you can spot amazingly well with just the GPS. I haven't had to spot a Twin Otter manually in years. GPS is doing it all from the cockpit.

Clearing the clouds of traffic is no problem. No aircraft can legally fly in the clouds without an ATC clearance. Therefore, the air traffic controller should be able to guarantee there are no law abiding planes in the clouds. It's technically feasible to jump through many cloud systems with little extra risk if you use the right procedures. It's just illegal in the US and many other countries.

[redlegphi 0]

The ATC should be able to do a lot of things. I'd prefer not to entrust my life to a guy in a booth several miles away who is looking at a radar screen and who probably has several things ahead of "planeload of skydivers" on his list of things that he's focusing on.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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The ATC should be able to do a lot of things. I'd prefer not to entrust my life to a guy in a booth several miles away who is looking at a radar screen and who probably has several things ahead of "planeload of skydivers" on his list of things that he's focusing on.

I'm that guy in the radar room. You already trust your life to me everytime you take an airliner or fly IFR. If we're entrusted to call traffic to a jump plane, we'll do our job. Jump planes are already required to call ATC for traffic advisories prior to jumps. We're already required to give them these advisories. I'm really good at multi-tasking.

[AndyMan 7]

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Therefore, the air traffic controller should be able to guarantee there are no law abiding planes in the clouds.

The problem isn't necesarily IFR planes flying in the clouds, the problem could very well be VFR planes flying under the clouds.

A jumpship flying above or in clouds can not effectively clear the airspace, since VFR traffic may be present under the clouds, and may not even have a transponder.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Auryn 0]

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Rain hurts, it is only an inconvenience.

You might hit what you cannot see under the cloud.

A passing aircraft, or another skydiver.

Example - a group gets out before you. At breakoff, the closest person tracks towards you, under a cloud, and dumps. They are vertically stationary compared to you because you are traveling at 120mph, and you hit them. Imagine.

This collision happened to my best friend 7 seconds after he deployed. Luckily the freefaller went through the front of my friend's canopy and not his body. However, what happened to him from the harness rebound made riser slap look like a tickle.

To make things worse, the freefaller, in a panic, deployed right above him. His PC was out but thankfully, nothing entangled.

this is a very real risk.