Overweight, Elderly, Uncurrent Skydiver

[skydived19006 4]

For consideration, comment, etc.

I was contacted by and have talked with at the DZ a couple of times an old skydiver. The guy has some 500 or 1000 jumps as I recall starting in the 1970s with his last jump 20 some years back. He had military jumps, and I'm jealous of the aircraft types noted in his log books. Many demonstration jumps, etc. All around very experienced guy.

Currently he's 78 years old, and in the neighborhood of 270 lbs. He had decided that he was going to start jumping again, so obviously (in his mind) the first step would be to buy gear. He called Strong Enterprises and ordered up a MC-4 system complete with 470 sf main and reserve parachutes, ripcord and spring loaded PC.

So far, he'd been flatly refused at one Kansas DZ. He indicated that another Kansas DZ had informed him that a modern AAD would be required to jump, but no doubt he wouldn't be allowed to jump with one, that was just the end of the conversation at that point is my guess.

I talked with him and advised that I would consider letting him jump with us were he able to get down to 230 lbs. He indicates that he has some sort of issue that would make achieving that weight next to impossible and that it will not happen. I've since given it more thought, and wrote the following letter which I plan to mail to him later today (I don't have an email address, and need to mail him the check book that he left behind anyway).

John (not the real name),
Since we talked Saturday, I’ve given your desire to jump again and your current state of physicality a bit more thought.

I’m not sure of your height, but guessing somewhere in the 5’8” range, and I think that at one time you had mentioned a weight of 270. For a man of 5’8” the ideal weight range is 145 to 165 lbs. 170 to 190 is considered to be overweight, and anything over 200 lbs being obese. At 270, you’re in excess of 100 lbs overweight, and obviously well into any definition of obesity. I wouldn't let someone 100 lbs overweight at 30 years of age jump, and with you age you’re more apt to injury than someone younger.

It’s not about whether the canopy is rated for the load, but basic physical fitness and susceptibility to injury. We've had serious injuries and death on our DZ, I think that I would be pushing negligence and would undoubtedly be accused of such were I to allow someone of your physical state to jump, let alone your advanced age and weight. I would without doubt be accused of such by media in the event of a serious injury, or fatality.

I had indicated that I would let you jump if you were able to get down to 230 lbs (50 lbs overweight). All things considered 230 lbs is marginable, but at this point I’ll hold to that number. Though, you've indicated that you’re not ever going to achieve that number, so it’s likely a moot point.

I would also require a modern (digital) automatic activation device be installed on any gear that you would jump. Just within my small world and time in sport, I know two people who are above ground and upright who would not be were it not for an AAD save, and two more people who had AAD saves and would very likely would have perished otherwise.

Martin Myrtle
Air Capital Drop Zone

Edit: I'm not up on military gear, but looked around a bit. They're more likely 370 SF canopies as opposed to 470.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[skytribe 17]

Seems to be well presented.

He has two options, play by the rules you have established or go somewhere else. No-one want to be the bad guy but ultimately this guys sounds like a potential accident waiting to happen. Whether simply a rough landing and a broken ankle or worse.

His weight, experience in the past are great but you are looking at the current. You have obviously given it some thought and not just made a kneejerk decision.

[gowlerk 2,190]

The effects of the passage of time on all of us is often sad. Judging from what you wrote this gentleman has no business jumping. If you were to allow it you would be negligent knowing what you know.

I am a big believer that it's an adult sport, and that adults get to make their own decisions, but there are, and must be limits. You are also an adult who must accept responsibility for what you decide to allow.

Good call.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Andy9o8 2]

Agreed. Every jumper has the right to decide his own acceptable level of risk, and every DZO has the right to decide not to be the instrument of someone's enhanced risk of self-maiming.

[yoink 321]

skydived19006

I’m not sure of your height, but guessing somewhere in the 5’8” range, and I think that at one time you had mentioned a weight of 270. For a man of 5’8” the ideal weight range is 145 to 165 lbs. 170 to 190 is considered to be overweight, and anything over 200 lbs being obese. At 270, you’re in excess of 100 lbs overweight, and obviously well into any definition of obesity. I wouldn't let someone 100 lbs overweight at 30 years of age jump, and with you age you’re more apt to injury than someone younger.

I'd definitely take out this passage.
I think you'd be right to refuse him, but stick to what impacts you. Whether he's classified as obese or not crosses the line in what the message should be.



I'd also keep the letter simple and not mention possibility for liability or negligence if he gets hurt jumping.

'Dear John,

After considerable thought I unfortunately cannot let you skydive at our location given your age, weight and physical condition due to concerns I have about your safety at this time.

In order to jump here we would require:
1) your weight not to exceed 220lbs
2) An signed medical stating your fitness to parachute
3) and a modern digital AAD.

Please understand that these requirements are for your safety.

I wish you the very best, and if you do decide to meet these targets look forward to beginning your training.

Kind Regards'

etc


I'd try to keep it impersonal and professional - if the guy wants to talk around the points in the letter via phone or in person that's when you can bring up the stories about the efficacy of AADs and the unachievable goals...

[Remster 30]

I would remove "let alone your advanced age and weight."

You've addressed the weight issue, and the age is only going to get him aggravated. Plus, you give him a plan on addressing the weight issue; you can't do that for age, so if you let him jump, age is not really a factor. We know it is, but, if you let him jump at 230, you made the call it's not a factor that will keep him on the ground; plus, he can't do anything about his age).

Also "marginable": you mean "marginal"?

Remster

[Remster 30]

... And what Yoink said.

Remster

[skydived19006 4]

yoink

***
I’m not sure of your height, but guessing somewhere in the 5’8” range, and I think that at one time you had mentioned a weight of 270. For a man of 5’8” the ideal weight range is 145 to 165 lbs. 170 to 190 is considered to be overweight, and anything over 200 lbs being obese. At 270, you’re in excess of 100 lbs overweight, and obviously well into any definition of obesity. I wouldn't let someone 100 lbs overweight at 30 years of age jump, and with you age you’re more apt to injury than someone younger.

I'd definitely take out this passage.
I think you'd be right to refuse him, but stick to what impacts you. Whether he's classified as obese or not crosses the line in what the message should be.



I'd also keep the letter simple and not mention possibility for liability or negligence if he gets hurt jumping.

'Dear John,

After considerable thought I unfortunately cannot let you skydive at our location given your age, weight and physical condition due to concerns I have about your safety at this time.

In order to jump here we would require:
1) your weight not to exceed 220lbs
2) An signed medical stating your fitness to parachute
3) and a modern digital AAD.

Please understand that these requirements are for your safety.

I wish you the very best, and if you do decide to meet these targets look forward to beginning your training.

Kind Regards'

etc


I'd try to keep it impersonal and professional - if the guy wants to talk around the points in the letter via phone or in person that's when you can bring up the stories about the efficacy of AADs and the unachievable goals...

Excellent points. I appreciate the input.
Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[cruelpops 0]

I think your letter is spot-on and I think you're doing him a favor by telling him what he is and what he isn't. Also, you're being awfully generous, lenient or whatever at 230 for a 5'7" or 5'8" person.

[yoink 321]

yoink

2) A signed medical stating your fitness to parachute

my mistake... Best get someone to spellcheck the letter before you send it!

[kallend 2,026]

Remster

I would remove "let alone your advanced age and weight."

You've addressed the weight issue, and the age is only going to get him aggravated. Plus, you give him a plan on addressing the weight issue; you can't do that for age, so if you let him jump, age is not really a factor. We know it is, but, if you let him jump at 230, you made the call it's not a factor that will keep him on the ground; plus, he can't do anything about his age).

Also "marginable": you mean "marginal"?

Age *may* be a factor. However, there are skydivers over 80 who jump regularly and are in better physical and cognitive shape than a lot of people under 40.

Suitability should be determined on its merits, not an arbitrary chronological factor.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skydived19006 4]

yoink

***
2) A signed medical stating your fitness to parachute

my mistake... Best get someone to spellcheck the letter before you send it!

My spelling tends to be pretty poor, through a child's difficulty learning to read I discovered that I'm a bit dyslexic. That said, I can see mistakes by others.

I plan to let my wife choose which note I send. Odds are that she'll choose your version. She generally thinks that I'm overly blunt/harsh when dealing with things such as this. Go figure.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[skydived19006 4]

kallend

***I would remove "let alone your advanced age and weight."

You've addressed the weight issue, and the age is only going to get him aggravated. Plus, you give him a plan on addressing the weight issue; you can't do that for age, so if you let him jump, age is not really a factor. We know it is, but, if you let him jump at 230, you made the call it's not a factor that will keep him on the ground; plus, he can't do anything about his age).

Also "marginable": you mean "marginal"?

Age *may* be a factor. However, there are skydivers over 80 who jump regularly and are in better physical and cognitive shape than a lot of people under 40.

Suitability should be determined on its merits, not an arbitrary chronological factor.

I totally agree Kellend. Were he in descent physical condition, I'd have absolutely no problem putting him out. He appears to be pretty mentally sharp. He even, seemingly without much trouble at all, convinced someone at Strong Enterprises to sell him that MC-4 rig. Though I don't know, that may not be much of a hurdle to clear.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[skytribe 17]

How about

"Dear Tubby

Lose some weight and we'll talk."

[justme12001 0]

The only thing I see wrong with the letter, is guessing at his height.

If you guessed right, then he is definitely overweight and shouldn't be jumping. However, if he is 6'4" or 6'5" and 270 lbs then he is just a big guy. I would like to meet him before telling him "NO"

Hell I'm 5'11" and 235lbs, could I stand to loose a few pounds...yes, am I obese...NO

I have attached a picture as a "size reference" I'm 37 years old, 5'11" 235lbs

[3mpire 0]

I'm not a doctor so I can't comment on your weight but that looks like the start to a larger than average water pipe.

[justme12001 0]

I went back and re read your OP. I missed the part about you meeting him at the DZ. I was under the impression you had only spoken to him

Please disregard my other post!!

( I'm still not fat )

[diablopilot 2]

At the end of the day, it's your DZ, your business, and your liability to protect. Your decision on safety and comfort level trumps his, and no one else will be standing up next to you in the courtroom when his family brings a lawsuit.

I support your right to make such a decision, and would suggest a simple "I'm not willing to accept the risks involved with you making a solo jump at my DZ." be plenty good enough to get the message across.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[riggerrob 643]

Agreed!
Just stand firm on weight.

I have known few regular skydivers over 230 pounds. They were all more than 6 feet tall, stocky and muscular. They spent a lot of time in the gym maintaining those muscles. Time in the gym also helps improve bone density, which is important for older skydivers.
In comparison, I stand 6 feet tall and try to keep my weight below 200 pounds, because above 200 pounds, my lumbar spine complains. For most of my adult life I have weighed between 180 and 190 pounds.

If your potential client cannot reduce his weight below 230 pounds, he should not be allowed to fly in your Cessna.

[DiverMike 5]

Quote

Hell I'm 5'11" and 235lbs, could I stand to loose a few pounds...yes, am I obese...NO

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news based on the horribly dated and inaccurate (yet government approved) BMI , but you are obese.

Your BMI is 32.8, which puts you square in the class I obesity classification of 30 to 35

I know - the BMI doesn't differentiate between fat and muscle


Hell - I am 5'10" and 174 lbs which puts me in the overweight classification

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[jimjumper 25]

Eventually there will be enough of these "larger than life" types to get obesity classified as a disability. Then they'll be able to sue anybody that refuses service under the ADA laws. It's coming. Ask anybody that's been sued over some of the ridiculous access laws already in place.

[akarunway 1]

jimjumper

Eventually there will be enough of these "larger than life" types to get obesity classified as a disability. Then they'll be able to sue anybody that refuses service under the ADA laws. It's coming. Ask anybody that's been sued over some of the ridiculous access laws already in place.

It already is. Go to the govt. SSDI website.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[skydived19006 4]

jimjumper

Eventually there will be enough of these "larger than life" types to get obesity classified as a disability. Then they'll be able to sue anybody that refuses service under the ADA laws. It's coming. Ask anybody that's been sued over some of the ridiculous access laws already in place.

Reminds me of a story I heard years ago about a titty bar that had to remove their "Shower an Hour" shower because it wasn't handicap accessible. But ya know, there's likely a market for the paraplegic erotic dancer.

Otherwise, if we're forced to take all comers regardless of weight, then I have to ask, will the NFL be required to let little girls play pro ball?

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[BIGUN 1,307]

Quote

Dear John,

After considerable thought; unfortunately we cannot let you skydive at our location given your weight and physical condition due to concerns regarding your safety at this time.

In order to jump here we would require:
1) Your weight not to exceed 220lbs
2) A medical statement from an MD/DO regarding your fitness to parachute
3) A modern digital AAD.

Please understand that these requirements are for your safety.

I wish you the very best, and if you do decide to meet these targets look forward to beginning your training.

Kind Regards,

Leave out the age (discriminatory) and I've done some editing.

No Charge.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[skypuppy 1]

skydived19006

******I would remove "let alone your advanced age and weight."

You've addressed the weight issue, and the age is only going to get him aggravated. Plus, you give him a plan on addressing the weight issue; you can't do that for age, so if you let him jump, age is not really a factor. We know it is, but, if you let him jump at 230, you made the call it's not a factor that will keep him on the ground; plus, he can't do anything about his age).

Also "marginable": you mean "marginal"?

Age *may* be a factor. However, there are skydivers over 80 who jump regularly and are in better physical and cognitive shape than a lot of people under 40.

Suitability should be determined on its merits, not an arbitrary chronological factor.

I totally agree Kellend. Were he in descent physical condition, I'd have absolutely no problem putting him out. He appears to be pretty mentally sharp. He even, seemingly without much trouble at all, convinced someone at Strong Enterprises to sell him that MC-4 rig. Though I don't know, that may not be much of a hurdle to clear.

this was the first thing that struck me. there seems to be a big thing in the base community about not selling rigs to people that have no business base jumping. A big thing about not letting low number jumpers to jump small fast canopies. But nothing about selling a rig to a 78 year old morbidly obese person?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone