Liberals vs. Conservatives

[kallend 2,106]

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In some places the lights are deliberately set to increase congestion, particularly around shopping malls.

I would like to find out where you get this from.

In my line of work - managing shopping centres - I actually lobby local government to easy congestion around the sites I manage. When people conceive a mall to e difficult to get to, they will go somewhere else. You want people to get to your property as easily and quickly as they can.

Generally local government understands that when my malls do better, I can afford to give them more taxes too.

Tell that to the city of Orland Park, IL. They have the best engineered congestion in the south suburbs of Chicago, and the fastest growth rate of their shopping center too. People drive through the shopping center to avoid the lights on the main road (Route 45). They have lights 50 yards apart that are deliberately out of synch to create gridlock.

If it's not deliberate, the city engineer is a moron.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

I agree, Kris. However, there are other things going on.

How does a school get dollars? Through property taxes. How does a school get more money? Through the state and feds.

How does a school get more than that from the state and feds? Perform poorly. Unfortunately, I don't know how to solve this paradox except via privatization.

Another issue - Ask 100 inner city school teachers what the biggest problem is. What will the vast majority say? Money for the schools? Classroom conditions? Students? Administration?

No. They'll say "parents." Unfortunately, school parents are like the ones you see for loser no-talent idiots on American Idol. "They don't knwo what they are doing, and I'm gonna support my kid no matter what. Discipline my child? I'll sue your ass."

Accountability is just as important. It is also something the govt. cannot give. Socioeconomic inequality cannto be solved without giving kids the idea that they will be accountable for their failures. Thanks to lawyers like me and poverty pimps who insist that these problems are the fault of the Man, thrwoing a billion dollars at LA Unified schools will not do any good until the culture changes.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

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I didn't say Republican or Democrat, I said conservative. I thought you lawyers were good with the fine print details. Anyway, the premise of your post is flawed.

Well, professor, you got me good. I dont' like being a lawyer unless I'm being a lawyer. It makes me more of an insufferable and pompous ass than I already am.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,106]

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I agree, Kris. However, there are other things going on.

How does a school get dollars? Through property taxes. How does a school get more money? Through the state and feds.

How does a school get more than that from the state and feds? Perform poorly. Unfortunately, I don't know how to solve this paradox except via privatization.

Another issue - Ask 100 inner city school teachers what the biggest problem is. What will the vast majority say? Money for the schools? Classroom conditions? Students? Administration?

No. They'll say "parents." Unfortunately, school parents are like the ones you see for loser no-talent idiots on American Idol. "They don't knwo what they are doing, and I'm gonna support my kid no matter what. Discipline my child? I'll sue your ass."

Accountability is just as important. It is also something the govt. cannot give. Socioeconomic inequality cannto be solved without giving kids the idea that they will be accountable for their failures. Thanks to lawyers like me and poverty pimps who insist that these problems are the fault of the Man, thrwoing a billion dollars at LA Unified schools will not do any good until the culture changes.

You are co-mingling different problems. You can't legislate good parenting. You can ensure all schools are funded equally. In IL there's something like a 2:1 ratio between the best funded and poorest funded public schools, because they're primarily finded by property taxes. What kind of tax base does Ford Heights, IL, have to support schools, with an average family income around $10k/year?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

You can legislate good parenting. You can legislate a lot of things. Doesn't mean it will work.

Rocket's point is the one I was trying to make earlier (Jaree and I got sidetrackedon hypotheticals) that the home life you receive from your parents makes or breaks a successful child, not money. Your teachers in all neighborhoods seem to agree with that.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Douva 0]

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Liberal doesn't necessarily mean Democrat and Conservative doesn't necessarily mean Republican. Liberals will seek bigger government and more taxes. Conservatives will focus on bigger business. Where does your paycheck come from, welfare or work?

"Where do we go from here, chaos or community?" Jefferson Starship, c.1972.

I strongly disagree with your description of Conservatives as wanting smaller government. The way I look at it, both sides want bigger government. They disagree because they both want bigger government supporting their own ideals. Liberals gave us the Environmental Protection Agency, and Conservatives gave us the Office of Homeland Security. Liberals push for gun control, and Conservatives push for limitations on free speech. Both sides are extremist groups, and history has shown time and time again that extremes in politics very seldom lead to any good. Extreme liberalism in Russia lead to Communism. Extreme conservatism in Germany lead to Nazism. We now frequently hear "liberal" and "conservative" used as pejoratives because, to many, the words have come to represent irrational extremist ideals. Rather than judge the real merits of an issue, we are asked to align with "our side." Anyone taking a more moderate approach to politics is disparaged as weak and wishy-washy. Populist pundit Jim Hightower wrote a book titled There's Nothing in the Middle of the Road but Yellow Stripes and Dead Armadillos. Maybe that's what we're really afraid of--giving up the security provided by the left and the right. There is no support base for somebody who makes up their own mind. And really, that's all a moderate is--somebody who makes up their own mind. A moderate doesn't try to find the "middle" stance on every issue; a moderate decides each issue based on its own merits. Extreme liberalism and extreme conservatism are like cults. Each side's members are berated with propaganda until they are so brainwashed that some of them are even willing to give their lives for their cause. A lack of intellectual honesty has lead our nation to a state where control is maintained not by rule by the people, for the people but by a sustained civil cold war.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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If it's not deliberate, the city engineer is a moron.

Wouldn't suprise me, I deal with enough of those.

[rehmwa 2]

you're confusing liberal and conservative (as defined by this post - Billvon will disagree, but that's the basis for the post) with Dems and Republicans.

Dems and Republican politicians both bush for bigger Gov (i.e., both are socially liberal)

Edit - Basis - I took this post to be intended to pursue the conversation with "Liberal" meaning active governmental involvement and "Conservative" meaning minimum governmental involvement.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,563]

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Extreme liberalism in Russia lead to Communism. Extreme conservatism in Germany lead to Nazism.

I don't think I would agree with either of those statements.
With politics there is not just a left and right but a front, back, up and down.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[lawrocket 3]

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You are co-mingling different problems. You can't legislate good parenting. You can ensure all schools are funded equally. In IL there's something like a 2:1 ratio between the best funded and poorest funded public schools, because they're primarily finded by property taxes. What kind of tax base does Ford Heights, IL, have to support schools, with an average family income around $10k/year?

Higher up I explained how they get the money. State and Feds.

I also stated I have no idea how to solve this problem.

The problems are sundry. I admit that I bitch about it and have no solution. All I know is that the way we've been doing it absolutely sucks. And the policies forwarded seem to be, "Do the same, but throw more money at it." It has not worked.

And, I fear, we cannot legislate around it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Douva 0]

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you're confusing liberal and conservative (as defined by this post - Billvon will disagree, but that's the basis for the post) with Dems and Republicans.

Dems and Republican politicians both bush for bigger Gov (i.e., both are socially liberal)

Edit - Basis - I took this post to be intended to pursue the conversation with "Liberal" meaning active governmental involvement and "Conservative" meaning minimum governmental involvement.

This discussion is clearly leading to a lot of definition discrepancies. If you are right about the original poster's intent, he should have simply made the question about big government versus big business, rather than polluting the issue with the terms "liberal" and "conservative." I assumed he had added his own definitions of "liberal" and "conservative" simply to help the debate along. Bill Von's definitions were the most traditionally accurate, but my post referred to the socially accepted definitions. In modern America, "liberal" and "conservative" usually identify which social movement a person belongs to. There's nothing inherently wrong with being "liberal" or "conservative," per the traditional definition, but liberalism and conservatism, as contemporary social movements, are both dangerous, in my opinion.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Nightingale 0]

how are parents supposed to put any confidence in the schools when:

1. the buildings are falling down and condemned (yes, some LAUSD buildings that they are still holding class in are condemned!)

2. The teachers are non-credentialed

3. Their kids have no books.

What about that would inspire a parent to have confidence in the school??

If schools were a more welcoming place for kids of lower socioeconomic status, perhaps behavior problems would lessen? its hard for kids to concentrate when the roof is leaking on their heads and their textbooks, if they have them, are full of bookworms.

These kids, for the most part, are dealing with inexperienced, mostly non-credentialed (AKA intern) teachers. These teachers have no classroom management skills, and, while they may have subject knowledge, they probably don't yet have the skills it takes to pass that knowledge on to students, especially uncooperative students.

If the schools were nice places to work and paid well, they would attract the veteran teachers who are currently working in suburban schools. Attract good teachers the same way corporations attract good employees: Pay them well and provide a good work environment.

A veteran teacher is much better equipped to deal with a class full of kids with limited English speaking parents, kids with behavior issues, and kids with poor attitudes. Unfortunately, these teachers never seem to end up where they could do the most good. If a school board could walk into a suburban high school and tell their top teachers "come work for us, we'll give you two prep periods a day, a classroom with a separate office for you to do your prep work at a brand new school with lots of nice flowers and trees, and brand new textbooks, with an administration that will actually listen to you, oh, and we'll pay you double!" do you think those teachers would give it a shot? I guarantee some would.

A good teacher can make a HUGE difference. Unfortunately, the schools that most need highly qualified teachers never get them. Teachers come in, work for a year or two while they finish up their credential, and either burn out because of the working conditions or move on to other areas once they're qualified. The kids who most need a teacher that knows how to teach never seem to have one. Is it any wonder these kids fall through the cracks?

[Nightingale 0]

sure... the solution is:

Put ALL the school money from the states and the feds into one big pot. Each student is then allocated a portion of that pot. Naturally, schools with more students receive more money.

Also, limit each school district to a maximum of ten elementary, ten middle, and ten high schools. This prevents the huge pyramid of administration that is currently eating LAUSD's money.

[wmw999 2,534]

Another piece is to reduce the amount of paperwork. People really like to see exactly where their money is going; the problem is that it costs a lot of time and frustration to account for all that money. Teachers aren't as turned on by paperwork as they are by teaching.

Don't eliminate it, but there's an awful lot of it right now. But then every "if one size fits all, then shape the kid" approach also doesn't work (e.g. standardized testing when you don't give extra money to areas which have a lower starting bar).

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Nightingale 0]

bout the only paperwork my mom has to do at her school (other than grading, report cards, progress reports, and IEPs) is signing out supplies when she takes them from the cabinet.

[kallend 2,106]

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I dont' like being a lawyer unless I'm being a lawyer. It makes me more of an insufferable and pompous ass than I already am.

Maybe you should become a law professor then

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

Bumping this just for Crapflinger

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[newsstand 0]

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(actually, why can't the private sector handle it, or, give us vouchers for the choice to go private, also if you are childless, why should you have to pay for someone else's choice?)...

Because all of society benefits if the populace is educated. Just because a person does not have children doesn't mean they don't personally benefit from a childs education. When a person gets sick a doctor cares for them that probably spent a few years in public schools. Pipes break get a plumber. Whatever you need someone has to do it and they need to be educated.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[newsstand 0]

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In some places the lights are deliberately set to increase congestion, particularly around shopping malls.

I would like to find out where you get this from.

In my line of work - managing shopping centres - I actually lobby local government to easy congestion around the sites I manage. When people conceive a mall to e difficult to get to, they will go somewhere else. You want people to get to your property as easily and quickly as they can.

Generally local government understands that when my malls do better, I can afford to give them more taxes too.

I remember reading in the Austin Texas paper about how the lights around the UT campus are deliberatly out of synch so we don't run over the students.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[livendive 8]

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Put ALL the school money from the states and the feds into one big pot. Each student is then allocated a portion of that pot. Naturally, schools with more students receive more money.

I think that approach might have a problem with regard to small rural schools (e.g. those with only double-digit graduating classes).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[SpeedRacer 1]

A message to all of you.


First of all: the whole American political scene is totally fucked.

Invading Iraq in a preemptive war is NOT, by the true definition of the word, a CONSERVATIVE act. This is true whether you agree with the invasion or not.

Second, the desire to have the government control all the citizens' money is NOT Liberalism!! LIBERALISM DOES NOT EQUAL SOCIALISM!!


webster definition: liberalism: a theory in economics
emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard (which we don't have anymore, but so what). c: a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties.


So basically, if you want to be left to your own devices, and don't want the government taxing the shit out of you because you believe in the power of the individual to take care of himself, then YOU ARE A LIBERAL!!!

just wanted to get that straight for once. and I also wanted to demonstrate why the ditto heads who tow the party line (whichever party) are f*&king idiots.

Speed Racer
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[wmw999 2,534]

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ditto heads who tow the party line (whichever party) are f*&king idiots.

Good to see you back, Speedy... And in fine form too, I see

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kpjumps 0]

[(actually, why can't the private sector handle it, or, give us vouchers for the choice to go private, also if you are childless, why should you have to pay for someone else's choice?)

Instead of asking how it should be funded, maybe ask why should it be 'publicly' funded? I chose to have kids, I'm prepared to pay for them.

Children do not ask to be born and should not suffer because their parents figured out how to have sex. To quote Thomas Jefferson (the father of public education) democracy cannot survive without those talents which nature has sown as liberally among the poor as well as the rich, but will perish without use, if not sought for and cultivated. So pony up and don't gripe about securing the future of democracy!

Your character will ultimately determine your destiny.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Conservatives don't say that African Americans and Hispanics can't make it.)

40 years ago conservatives said African Americans and Hispanics SHOULDN'T make it, and did everything in their power to prevent them making it. Now they have changed their tune to "let them make it but without any help from my taxes".

Gee, you mean the same way I am supposed to make it? What a rough row to hoe! I feel so BAD for them!
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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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You are co-mingling different problems. You can't legislate good parenting. You can ensure all schools are funded equally. In IL there's something like a 2:1 ratio between the best funded and poorest funded public schools, because they're primarily finded by property taxes. What kind of tax base does Ford Heights, IL, have to support schools, with an average family income around $10k/year?

Higher up I explained how they get the money. State and Feds.

I also stated I have no idea how to solve this problem.

The problems are sundry. I admit that I bitch about it and have no solution. All I know is that the way we've been doing it absolutely sucks. And the policies forwarded seem to be, "Do the same, but throw more money at it." It has not worked.

And, I fear, we cannot legislate around it.

I agree. I got to thinking just now about what is said above regarding the 2:1 ratio of school funding in IL (and probably elsewhere).

There is no causation established when one discovers that crappy schools that churn out undereducated kids have much less money. It is not enough to correlate money with intelligence/test scores/good grades/success/arrest rates, etc.

Let's say you observe that white suburban schools have more money and then you observe that the kids are smarter, do better on tests, get into college, get good, high-paying jobs... You could be simplistic about it and say that it's all because there is more money in the schools and that extra spending made all the good things happen.

Why, though, couldn't you say that because the people living in that area care about education and learning,and come from that kind of tradition and background, they worked hard to learn, got educated, got good jobs, and now own property that is highly taxed and therefore more money goes into their schools? The money that is poured into the "good" schools, which is often alleged to be the reason the kids do well (as opposed to learning good habits and values from educated, intelligent parents) had to get earned and cultivated somehow, before it got put into the schools. That means that before there was ever a lot of money from expensive, taxable real estate, there were people who were educated and well-employed who had to first make that money, buy the property, pay the taxes that then went into the schools.

If you put an inner city kid into a good, well-funded school but he goes home to drug-dealing parents or something crappy like an inner-city environment, he is not going to suddenly do well in school just because the textbooks are new and they have Apple G-5s in the computer lab. If a kid is still surrounded by the environment of pants-around-the-ass, low-rider cars with bass thudding making the trunk lid vibrate, gang-sign flashing, gun-toting, killing-for-expensive-sneakers-and-other-stupidass-status-symbols, he is still going to value that and not value what is truly important, which is getting a good education.

That's just how I see it.
And it seems to me that modern "Liberals" patronize the inner city dwellers with promises that tax money pumped into their schools will make everything all right. In fact, they offer that as pollyanna for all the ills they see everywhere -- FUND FUND FUND and the problem will right itself. If the typical liberal skydived, he'd throw money at a bag-lock to try to resolve it, and if he reached 2,500' he'd start throwing hundreds instead of twenties.
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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"