"Conscientious Objector" - My Fat Hairy White Ass

[Skyrad 0]

'Last I checked, Tony Blair does what GWB tells him to'

True, which is why he won't be in power for to much longer, hopefully he will piss off to your side of the pond and prance about to the adoration that you all love to give the prat.
British soldiers have a legal responsibility to not carry out illegal orders so yes they are able to pick and choose in that respect. Unlike your government which with amazing forsight chose not to be included in international legal agreements that mean British soldiers can be put on trail for war crimes. American soldiers are free to commit war crimes and therefore don't have to make such decisions. FYI I have worn the uniform of my country (In two colours).

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[happythoughts 0]

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I thought someone was objecting to your fat, hairy, white ass. I probably would too. However, for an unbiased judgement, post a pic.

Don't listen to Bill - do not post that pic. I am one of your "liberal masters" and do not give you permission.

I cannot believe that you are not being supportive of another skydiver in his time of need. I just want to help him examine his feelings. Maybe it's just his jumpsuit that makes his ass look fat, a simple resolution to the problem. If I had "ass issues", I'd want to think that you guys would care.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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I cannot believe that you are not being supportive of another skydiver in his time of need. I just want to help him examine his feelings. Maybe it's just his jumpsuit that makes his ass look fat, a simple resolution to the problem. If I had "ass issues", I'd want to think that you guys would care.

Do you often give "ass issues" advice at the DZ to other guys? Do you believe in form or function?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[jdhill 0]

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British soldiers have a legal responsibility to not carry out illegal orders

As do US soliders... they are not free to commit war crimes... we choose to put them on trial ourselves.

I seriously doubt that the guy was ever ordered to engage non-combatants (which would be illegal)... If that was the basis of his claim, it would be all over the news... he disagrees with the politics behind the war... that does not make the war illegal, and thus, he does not get to choose.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[happythoughts 0]

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Do you often give "ass issues" advice at the DZ to other guys? Do you believe in form or function?

Dude, it's not like we have a "Men's forum" to discuss these things. People come to me for advice on a variety of issues. The Oracle at Delphi had to pass the torch to someone. I was the logical recipient of my time.

I think for jumpsuits, it's definitely "function". Since hair has so little function, I go with "form". Shoes can go either way and you know how important shoes are. Life is so complex, I have to deal with it moment by moment.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Do you often give "ass issues" advice at the DZ to other guys? Do you believe in form or function?

Dude, it's not like we have a "Men's forum" to discuss these things. People come to me for advice on a variety of issues. The Oracle at Delphi had to pass the torch to someone. I was the logical recipient of my time.

I think for jumpsuits, it's definitely "function". Since hair has so little function, I go with "form". Shoes can go either way and you know how important shoes are. Life is so complex, I have to deal with it moment by moment.

I just don't believe that!!!


You called me dude?

After that post, I've got nothing! haha

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[happythoughts 0]

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You called me dude?

I'm trying to get into freeflying. I figure that is how it starts, saying "dude" a lot. That and the fluffy clown pants. And maybe the first time your cd player skips, that makes you want to listen to techno.

"Dude, those pants look awesome on you, on you, on you..."

[DJL 235]

Good for him. Even if he's wrong and he's just being a pussy, his actions force a review of the right vs. wrong of what we're doing.

Edited to quote jdhill:

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he disagrees with the politics behind the war... that does not make the war illegal, and thus, he does not get to choose.

This sums up the issue. While we make every effort to avoid civilian casualties, it's inevitible. Also, we take more measures to protect civilians than anyone, even to the point of deaths on our side. One could say that we're just there for oil with the excuse of WMD, but SH was evil. Enough.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[pajarito 0]

Not trying to put you down in any way and this is not in any way an attack on you. Just offering my view.

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Shouldn't judge a man 'till you've walked a mile in his boots. A lot of people sitting safe in thier easy boys shouting hang him here. He's already seen action. How many of you have? If he's such a little shit then how did he get to the rank of Staff Sargent? Is the American millitary so inept that cowardly hypocritical alien pricks often make it to Staff Sgt? I don't suppose this is something he's done lightly. To break from his men trash his career, his reputation. Disgrace his regiment. Thats not something one does lightly. Ever thought that maybe he had real reasons?

Many of us posting have served and some have seen action and I say that he’s broken military law and should be punished accordingly. In any case, unless he’s received an unlawful order, he has no excuse but to show up for duty. I’ve seen more than just this guy get away with this in recent years. More should be punished for their actions. We have become way too lenient.

It is sad but true that many in the US military do in fact reach higher ranks without being competent to serve in that position. The promotion system just isn’t that good. His rank of SSG is not necessarily indicative of his maturity, ability, or trustworthiness.

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I heard on the news that this man did not want to return to Iraq becasue he was in an action where US troops shot and killed women and children in an engagement. Allegedly he was stating that he did not want to be placed in that situation again.

I can’t put myself in his particular situation but I can tell you that, even though they aren’t targeted by the US, civilians die in war. It’s just sad fact of the matter. It’s been that way as long as there has been war. This guy probably did see horrific things during his previous tour. That does not, however, give him the right to desert. He’s still under obligation to his country.

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True, which is why he won't be in power for to much longer, hopefully he will piss off to your side of the pond and prance about to the adoration that you all love to give the prat.
British soldiers have a legal responsibility to not carry out illegal orders so yes they are able to pick and choose in that respect. Unlike your government which with amazing forsight chose not to be included in international legal agreements that mean British soldiers can be put on trail for war crimes. American soldiers are free to commit war crimes and therefore don't have to make such decisions. FYI I have worn the uniform of my country (In two colours).

Americans also have a duty to refuse illegal orders. We are not free to commit war crimes

[jdhill 0]

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his actions force a review of the right vs. wrong of what we're doing.

I don't see where his actions force a review of anything... the right vs. wrong of this has been drug through the media for over a year... there were a couple of reservists that tried it at the outset... didn't work for them either... the statement he is trying to make was also thrown about in '91... most people don't buy into it (and don't want to hear it either).

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[Skyrad 0]

I'm not suggesting that he was ordered to shoot at known civvies. Was just taking the Mick a bit. I genuinly think that this guy is either genuinly screwed up by what he experienced in which case he needs help, or he's swinging the lead and taking the piss and being a slacker (which would suprise me of a Staff Sgt, at least in a British infantry regiment, maybe things really are very different in the US (No insult intended)). Either way in either condition he's not someone I'd want covering my back. But if he is genuinly messed up by what happened then he needs help.

What I want to know is why the big fuss over this guy when there were 200,000 Conciencious Objectors (COs) in the Vietnam War, 4,300 in the Korean War, 37,000 in World War II and 3,500 in World War I.

The military granted 111 COs from the army in the first Gulf War before putting a stop to the practice, resulting in 2,500 soldiers being sent to prison,

Source: Bill Gavlin from the Center on Conscience and War, quoting a report from the Boston Globe newspaper.

The most he could be guilty of is going AWOL and failure to obey a direct command. Not saying thats good but... deserter?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[pajarito 0]

As was stated before, we signed a piece of paper stating that we were not conscientious objectors during enlistment. This guy did too. He's under obligation to his country.

What others have gotten away with in the past in irrelevant. What this guy has done is against military law. I personally have no problem with the accusation of desertion.

[crzjp20 0]

i would hope you dont have a problem with the accusation caseu that is what he is doing. He refuses to report, then he is going to get hit with it.

I am glad i am not his PL caseu i would hate to loose a sergant caseu of his ignorance.

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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[jdhill 0]

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deserter?

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Punitive Articles of the UCMJ

Article 85—Desertion...
(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service;

Maximum punishment.

(1) Completed or attempted desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.

(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.

(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.
(b) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.

(3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/mcm/bl85.htm

I'd say Desertion fits.

Since the first gulf war, CO status has been much harder to obtain, and is gernerally not looked upon favorably when decaired in the light of a deployment, hence 2,500 going to jail.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[newsstand 0]

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Shouldn't judge a man 'till you've walked a mile in his boots. A lot of people sitting safe in thier easy boys shouting hang him here. He's already seen action. How many of you have? If he's such a little shit then how did he get to the rank of Staff Sargent? Is the American millitary so inept that cowardly hypocritical alien pricks often make it to Staff Sgt? I don't suppose this is something he's done lightly. To break from his men trash his career, his reputation. Disgrace his regiment. Thats not something one does lightly. Ever thought that maybe he had real reasons?

But he could have done this without deserting. Go to the CO and say "I am not going back there." Refuse to serve make your statement but don't runaway.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[crzjp20 0]

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Shouldn't judge a man 'till you've walked a mile in his boots. A lot of people sitting safe in thier easy boys shouting hang him here. He's already seen action. How many of you have? If he's such a little shit then how did he get to the rank of Staff Sargent? Is the American millitary so inept that cowardly hypocritical alien pricks often make it to Staff Sgt? I don't suppose this is something he's done lightly. To break from his men trash his career, his reputation. Disgrace his regiment. Thats not something one does lightly. Ever thought that maybe he had real reasons?

well some of us have been in his shoes. I am not one of them, i havnt been deployed yet, key word yet... still waiting to find out when it is going to happen. But i do have alot of people i know over there. Alot of friends. A few of which have been banged up pretty badly, and one of which was KIA. I know it is going to be hard, i kow it is goign to suck, and i know that i will have to make decission that are beyond my mind right now. But i also know i love my country and i will follow my orders, and i will serve with everything i have. I wont lie and say im not scared of the thought of going over there, but i do know that i can and will acomplish my mission. SSG are not alwyas as great as they seem. I have had great ones and i have had ones that have been completetly worthless when it came to leadership. This kid is not a CO, he is against the politcs of thsi war. He desreves to be put on trial and to be punished accordingly if convicted. I dont care about his reasons, i care that he signed a piece of paper and took an oth to serve this country, and to do so with valor, respect, and courage. He is in violatin of his Oath. Adn he trashed his career already by taking the actions he has.

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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[JohnRich 4]

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What's this about rebellious colonists taking the King's shilling?

That was different: the King was taxing the colonists, taking their money, while at the same time not letting them participate in their own government. That was part of what led to the revolution: "Taxation without representation."

[Guest]

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What's this about rebellious colonists taking the King's shilling?

That was different: the King was taxing the colonists, taking their money, while at the same time not letting them participate in their own government. That was part of what led to the revolution: "Taxation without representation."

Ah, your leg was being pulled there with the "rebellious colonists" bit - a humorous reference to history...
The allegory was to volunteers in the British military, especially in the early 19th Century. It implies that in exchange for all the goodies one gets in the modern service (free everything AND education), one has duty and obligation (as has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, one doesn't get to decide which wars one does or does not approve of). Many GIs over here use the term "Take/took the King's Shilling" in this generic sense to refer to this two-way deal (one swears an oath of allegiance, and THEN gets benefits, etc. - not the other way around); it has nothing to do with taxation.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[slug 1]

IMO maybe we're being a little harsh.

How about if the guy just can't hack it anymore?

Went thru his chain of command told them he was suffering from Combat fatique, PTSD whatever and couldn't (not wouldn't) go back?

Is that being a coward or a "weak individual".

Didn't Patton get into deep Do Do During WW2 for slapping a G.I. in a hospital (in front of the press) suffering from combat fatique?

What does it take for a soldier that can't hack it to get pulled off the line? Suicide? Some of those guys got to come home... the hard way.

During VN a friend got drafted into the marines. They wouldn't put some worthless unmotivated draftee with their front line gung ho volunteer enlistee's.

Buddy did 2 yr's in a computer room in Puerto Rico serving his country with the marines.

I don't want to be a judge based on the news media or the PIO's.

R.I.P.

[crzjp20 0]

well that would have beeen the better thing to do. He should have gone to his Pl and requested a transfer. Told them he was suffering form combat shoock or something like that. Would he have gotten a transfer... probly not, but that is the way to do it.

Second, Patton got in trouble for slapping the kid infront of the press. It was in front of the press and that is the key thing. if i haev asoldger that acts like that will i be sympathetic.. yeah probnly so casue that is my personality, but at the same time i would ask for an emidiete article 15... for the non military thsi is a less than honarable discharge.

just my opinion

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Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[Snowflake 0]

You really love the sound of your voice....don't ya?

[Guest]

Don't get your history from movies.

The GI whom Patton slapped around was actually quite ill and running a fever. He was waiting at the aid station while other more seriously wounded men were treated first. It's just that to Patton, the GI, by not appearing outwardly wounded, looked to him to be a malingerer and was singled out for mistreatment. Immediately afterwards, the GI was examined and the prognosis was made.

Patton's conduct was inexcusable - that is why Ike took one of Georgie's stars, and if Ike hadn't needed Georgie so badly in Italy, he would have relieved him of command. Please see "The Oxford Book of Military Anectdotes" for several eyewitness accounts of the incident, culled from official reports and testimony.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

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You really love the sound of your voice....don't ya?

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Skyrad 0]

Fair play I agree.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[livendive 8]

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Furthermore, a soldier is just that - a soldier. A soldier is a part of a larger whole - a unit, and he does what he's told, when he's told. Any political opinions he may have about the current state of world affairs are of little consequence.

Really? How'd that position fair at Nuremberg?

This guy is within his rights to refuse to go back. The military is also within its' rights to punish him appropriately for such a refusal.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)