Defenders of justice and human rights?

[Luv2Fall 0]

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It's an ugly world Robert.

I can only imagine..............

[goose491 0]

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Pajarito's a man who has been there and has a better understanding and insight as to what's going on there...................far better than most of us here.

I'd value his oppinion a lot more if it actually provided any insight.

Instead, his posts are riddled with the very "They aren't Americans, they should consider themselves lucky to be alive" and "I could personnaly give a shit what people think of us" type of garbage that keeps the anti-Americanism rolling.

The point made by the original post is that human beings were mistreated... that many of them are now being released (quietly) because they are innocent.


In another thread, just a few days ago, this same person was speaking of Jesus Christ, who teaches us Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself....But Parjarito's response to todays humanity issues is: "Screw those bastards. I'm worried about our own guys. Not those shitheads at Gitmo."

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[pajarito 0]

I don't believe in torture either and, in a perfect utopian society, that would never happen. That world doesn't exist, however, and we have to work with what we've got. Like I said, we did nothing of the sort as far as breaking military or civilian law. There are a LOT of people ouside these protected borders that do not hold your optimistic view of life. It's an admirable goal but unrealistic for a lot of the world. What works here doesn't necessarily work elsewhere. In order to protect ourselves and survive, however, some of us have to go outside and get our hands a little dirty.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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Not those shitheads at Gitmo

The US govt is releasing a number of those "shitheads at Gitmo" stating they have done nothing wrong, are no danger to anyone and were picked up by mistake.

There are two arguments here. How should TERRORISTS be treated. And how should SUSPECTED-TERRORISTS be treated. People always seem to forget that suspected-terrorists are NOT always terrorists. These releases highlight that fact nicely - they did nothing wrong and yet were kept detained for 2 years. Forgetting allegations of torture for the moment, (they cannot be corroborated at the mo) is that how we should treat someone who has done nothing wrong? Keep them incarcerated for 2 years?

(please don't come back with some silly response that they have done something wrong - the US govt has already said that those they released have done nothing, they are innocent of any wrongdoing and yet they were kept in prison for 2 years).

[Luv2Fall 0]

Dealing with an entirely different culture under an entirely different set of rules/values is extremely taxing.............of course the lives of your men are going to be far more important........if they weren't you wouldn't be worthy to serve and to lead these men.

[pajarito 0]

What “insight” are you providing? I’m amazed at your ability to cherry pick statements, take them out of context, and piece them together to make your broad generalities. Very much like what some do with the Christian Bible. I’m just giving you a realistic view of what’s out there. Pardon the frustration in some of my derogatory statements. You’re absolutely correct. That is not very Christian. I’m far from leading the perfect example set forth by Jesus Christ. I’ve just had direct dealings with very bad people and have seen friends killed and wounded. I’d call it a grudge. Again, not very Christian. I’m sorry. In reference to “human beings were mistreated”, that should be in reference to the ones I mentioned. Not the ones at Gitmo. You have no proof of that. People are mistreated, brutalized, killed, raped, tortured, every day all over the world. I’m not denying that people were mistreated in Afghanistan. Not by us. Plenty were mistreated, though. Under the Taliban, they were paraded around a soccer field and shot in the head for the crowd to see. They were hung by the neck from the arch at the entrance of the city. It’s an ugly world. You have ABSOLUTELY no proof to validate your statements concerning the “innocence” of the detainees being released. I wouldn’t call that insight on your part. I’d call that pointless ramblings.

[pajarito 0]

Don't believe everything you read in the paper. You are not privy to what's actually going on. You have no idea what they might have gotten from the realeased detainees. Like I said, they might not have been combatants. They might not have don't anything wrong. That doesn't mean they don't hold intel, though. We really have no idea and probably will not.

[mr2mk1g 10]

We do know that they are not terrorists though. We do know that they are not a danger to anyone and we know that the US has known this for some time. I know there are plenty of arguments for keeping people detained if there is a good possability that they may be a terrorist and of course this has to happen... I just shirk at the idea of 2 years of detention.

If the US is a certain that they pose no threat whatsoever how could they possibily detain them so long. And would they still be there if the UK govt had not put pressure on the US for their release?

I accept fully your argument about their possibly holding intel though... but I'm equally uneasy about people being held for 2 years in order for intel to be secured.

[pajarito 0]

These people are more disciplined that you might think. Many are fanatical. You don't know how long it might take to get what you want from them. This is pure speculation, though. Just because they might not have been terrorists, however, doesn't mean that they might not be valuable. Also, in reality, just because we released some of them doesn't mean that they are no longer a threat.

[goose491 0]

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Dealing with an entirely different culture under an entirely different set of rules/values is extremely taxing.............of course the lives of your men are going to be far more important........if they weren't you wouldn't be worthy to serve and to lead these men.

I understand that in battle, you must consider the lives of your men more valuable then the lives of your enemy. Please do not misconstrue my concerns though, for we are no longer speaking of the fray.

We are talking about the lives of the innocents at Gitmo. And the 'different set of rules' which allowed the U.S. to keep them for so long without legal process and basic human rights.

We are talking about the guilties at Gitmo. And the 'different set of rules' which allowed the U.S. to torture them.

We are talking about a 'different set of rules' which was fabricated by the U.S. in order to do these inhummane things, we are talking about the 'entirely different cultures' which facilitates the ability to release these men quietly, we are talking about having your people beleive all the detainees were 'shitheads' and we are talking about not ever having to deal with your mistakes.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[mr2mk1g 10]

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just because we released some of them doesn't mean that they are no longer a threat.

Whats being said about some of these is that they never were a threat and were picked up by mistake. A system must of course allow for innocents to be picked up in order to protect the greater good, but for 2 years?

[kallend 2,107]

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There are many US legal experts who think the US administration is more then bending the US constitution and the principal issue is still before the courts.

I wasn't going to get into this debate (and still won't), but here goes.

I believe Freeflier would agree with me here that following the rules to the letter of the law sounds great on paper, but it's a practice only good in theory. People like to think they're safer in a country that follows all the rules all the time and dots every i and crosses every t.

Let me break it down to you like this. This country, like every other country out there is guilty of breaking the rules. It is neccessary. Let me repeat that. It is absolutely fucking neccessary for our military and certain units to break the law for the purpose of good for the endgame.

I have no idea what Freeflier did in the military but I have some educated guesses. I can probably speak for the both of us when I say that there are military units out there that do some pretty fucking sick and terrible things for God and Country (please for the love of God do not turn this into a religeous thread. God and Country is a term we use in the military). There are US units out there who are ordered to break the law. Ordered to break international rules and regulations. It's an ugly game, but a very neccessary game.

If anyone out there is shaking their head in response to me saying that we have units that break the law for the purpose of overall good...well...you are living your life with blinders on. If it makes you feel safe to sit in your cozy house and believe that our military are paladins riding the white horses into battle fighting the evil dragons as they stop occasionally and throw down their jackets over the puddles for the women to cross and never committing any evil acts themselves then so be it.

If you want to believe that victory can be accomplished by always following the rules...then you have your head up your ass. The terrorists and other countries out there who wish to do us harm don't play by the rules. To win, you have to stack the deck in your favor. You have to win at all costs. You have to take rules and regulations at times and throw them right out of the proverbial window.

Sometimes you have to dance with evil in order to live with good.

Sorry, Freeflier, for using you specifically, but it irks me that some people who have not "been there done that" jump on people who have as we did and make uneducated remarks.

So you are agreeing that the US is in violation of its own Constitution and the Geneva Conventions. Hmmmm.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,107]

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Because I want to see all humans treated humanely, I should join the other side? I don't think so. The other side is a bunch of cowardly murderers. I don't want to be on that side. And I don't want us to become that way, either.

If you think that torture and abuse are the way to do things, then you're the one who needs to join the other side.

Haven't we heard this before from Cheney and Rumsfeld - either you're with us or you're a TRAITOR?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,107]

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Don't believe everything you read in the paper. You are not privy to what's actually going on. You have no idea what they might have gotten from the realeased detainees. Like I said, they might not have been combatants. They might not have don't anything wrong. That doesn't mean they don't hold intel, though. We really have no idea and probably will not.

Like Rumsfeld knew what was going on when he said "We know where they are". and Bush said that Iraq could deploy its WMDs in 45 minutes...?

Sorry, that "we know secret stuff" line has gotten really old and tired.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pajarito 0]

You're assuming that torture took place at Gitmo. You're assuming that everyone released was innocent. All baseless.

As I stated before, some of my derrogatory comments have to do with my personal level of frustration with my involvement in the mission.

[Luv2Fall 0]

.............probably not to mention the public - live - decapitations..........skinning of live victims also.

[kallend 2,107]

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.............probably not to mention the public - live - decapitations..........skinning of live victims also.

I really fail to see how bad behavior committed by one's enemies justifies bad behavior on our own part. My mother taught me something like that when I was an infant.

I would hope (apparently in vain) that the administration of a great nation would have learned a similar lesson.

If we do not follow our own rules, by what right do we claim any moral superiority over those whom we seek to overthrow?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Luv2Fall 0]

Pajarito's comments realistically and more accurately depicts anything I can say concerning the same.

[goose491 0]

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You have ABSOLUTELY no proof to validate your statements concerning the “innocence” of the detainees being released.

I thought the original post made reference to one Jamal Udeen.. released from Gitmo... Was he guilty AND released? Why would the U.S. release a guilty man?

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What “insight” are you providing? I’m amazed at your ability to cherry pick statements, take them out of context, and piece them together to make your broad generalities.

Cherry pick what? The statements I chose reflect 90% of your posted attitude whenever this topic comes up. "Screw the shitheads at Gitmo" and "They should consider themselves luck to be alive.".

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I’m far from leading the perfect example set forth by Jesus Christ. I’ve just had direct dealings with very bad people and have seen friends killed and wounded. I’d call it a grudge. Again, not very Christian. I’m sorry.

Now we are getting somewhere. This is absolutely beautiful we are all feeling about people being "mistreated, brutalized, killed, raped, tortured, every day all over the world" might easily be misdirected when we've got a bunch of people in a cage somewhere.

As far as your examples of direct dealings with very bad people and having friends killed and wounded . I feel for you. I am sorry that you have had to experience that. Furthermore, I thank you for your dedication in trying to stop it. Turning the other cheek is the way to stop it though... not saying put down your riffle here but put yourself in the shoes of one Jamal Udeen - shithead from Gitmo.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Luv2Fall 0]

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.............probably not to mention the public - live - decapitations..........skinning of live victims also.

I really fail to see how bad behavior committed by one's enemies justifies bad behavior on our own part. My mother taught me something like that when I was an infant.

Teachings (albeit excellent & true) and individual realities can and do part ways...............not something one can be easily explain.........

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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When the dust settles in Spain, despite their most recent elections, will you begin to criticize their actions which will most certainly not be solely diplomatic, in the wake of their own "11"? Personally, I hope their sharpening their bull's horns for some action.

Last I heard they are pulling their 1,300 troops out of Iraq.

On a seperate note:

Parajito you keep speaking of a war. I thought an official declaration was needed for the US to be at war. I don't think that has taken place.

[pajarito 0]

Hypothetical scenario: A surgeon is performing an operation to remove a cancerous ovary in a woman. The other ovary appears to be abnormal also but they're not sure. They consult the pathologist. The pathologist calls during the surgery and says that it is in fact malignant. The surgeon's clamp the blood supply and begin the removal of the other ovary. Minutes later, the pathologist calls back and says that it's probably not. Too late. The surgeon acted on the information he/she had at the time. Time sensitive information. Decisions have to be made. You'd better make sure you've got someone in the White House that isn't afraid to make the hard ones.

[pajarito 0]

Tell that to my friend who doesn't have a leg anymore or the others who were shot. Tell that to the one that was killed by a sniper on a rooftop. Tell that to the guys that fought in Vietnam. The difference is, we weren't fighting against a country. We are fighting against terrorists not affiliated with a country. Gotta go for now. I'll be back.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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We are fighting against terrorists not affiliated with a country.

Then wat are you calling the invasion of Iraq? Is that a war as well, or is that a different term, since it now does specifically is a coutry, yet no declaration of war was made?

[goose491 0]

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You're assuming that torture took place at Gitmo.

I do assume that torture took place at Gitmo. But that it will never ever be common knowledge.

This was interesting:

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I had to deal with Al-Qaeda and Taliban prisoners at a particular prison in Afghanistan. Whenever they got cocky and wouldn't answer our questions, we'd just turn them over to the Afghan prison guards. Some of the Afghan prison guards were previously tortured by the Taliban regime before we kicked them out. The afghan guards would make sure the prisoners got their attitudes back in check and then they would send them back to us.

Wonder what took place. Wonder how the prisoners got their attitudes back in check. And they were hand delivered by the U.S. I don't have to give you any sort of proof. I feel your frustration. I know you understand what transpired... I know you understand that 'washing your hands' of something does not clear you of it's moral implications.

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You're assuming that everyone released was innocent. All baseless.

I'm assuming that nobody would be released that was still considered a threat. Based on the fact that we have attackted, with no proof, people that we have considered to be threats.

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As I stated before, some of my derrogatory comments have to do with my personal level of frustration with my involvement in the mission.

And I point out to you that I am not attacking you. I do however, feel a need to single you out. You are a key in this locked debate. You have a fundamental understanding of what is taking place and you have the personal experience to back it up. Yet your frustration blinds you such that that Jamal Udeens story means nothing to you.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!