Muenkel 0 #51 February 27, 2004 QuoteYes but God didn't write the book, The book was written by men. When I last checked, none of the books of the Bible were authored by Jesus. History dictates that the Bible was written by men who walked and talked with Jesus himself. There is also something called Divine Inspiration and private revelation. At the risk of being called a nutcase, I personally have experienced both. So much so, that I am convinced there is only one God and one truth. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #52 February 27, 2004 I don't need to see the movie. I already read the book and knows how it ends._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #53 February 27, 2004 QuoteAs I enjoy the principle of "The Great One Being" as a boundless, what do you base "your beliefs" on, from, or combination of...? and... always interesting to watch someone attack an author when they have no reply to their argument. no idea what your asking here? from? everything. belief? you dont need it direct observation is significant enough, it takes some practice (as nearly everything does) but its really so stunningly simple once you look for yourself, divinity doenst hide, go outside and look, listen and stop thinking about it. defy dogma you dont need any of it. the word of man keeps you from hearing the voice of god. the assertion that 'God' is 'this' because 'my book says HE is' is ludicrous. Its a rather easy argument to reply to, you'll note the continued lack of coherent response since. 'God' precludes gender. but christians will continue to insist God remain true to their vision of Charlton Heston on a what must be a really uncomfortable stone throne...... please.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #54 February 27, 2004 QuoteQuoteYes but God didn't write the book, The book was written by men. When I last checked, none of the books of the Bible were authored by Jesus. History dictates that the Bible was written by men who walked and talked with Jesus himself. There is also something called Divine Inspiration and private revelation. At the risk of being called a nutcase, I personally have experienced both. So much so, that I am convinced there is only one God and one truth. Chris Um, check history again. The men that wrote the book only shared the names of the apostles - the didn't write the gospels. In fact, IIRC from the Seminary, John was the first gospel written - almost 50 years after Jesus died. The average life span back then would have had all the apostles dead by then. Divine inspiration is a faith based issue. If you are not Catholic, Christian, etc....that means the book was written by men and thus is flawed. Quoting lines from a book they have no faith in will not help you win any arguments with them. some quotes from one of my favorite movies: Quote You're saying that having beliefs is a bad thing? I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. When are you people going to learn? It's not about who's right or wrong. No denomination's nailed it yet, and they never will because they're all too self-righteous to realize that it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith. Your hearts are in the right place, but your brains need to wake up. Church laws are fallible because they're created by man. In other words: religion should be a blessing, not a burden -- it should be about ideas, not strict beliefs._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #55 February 27, 2004 QuoteThey have even published a Lesbian" edition, and that wasnt written by Almighty God, I can assure you Says you. What if they claim that the Lord wrote through them? Once again - that is where faith comes in - who is right in this argument? You? What makes the publisher any different than the prophets? They were ridiculed for claiming to be speaking for God and most didn't believe them. I cannot conceive of a god who rewards and punishes his creatures or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egotism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature. - Albert Einstein _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #56 February 27, 2004 QuoteQuoteYes but God didn't write the book, The book was written by men. When I last checked, none of the books of the Bible were authored by Jesus. History dictates that the Bible was written by men who walked and talked with Jesus himself. There is also something called Divine Inspiration and private revelation. At the risk of being called a nutcase, I personally have experienced both. So much so, that I am convinced there is only one God and one truth. edited for clarity Quotechristians dictate that the Bible was written by men who walked and talked with Jesus himself. they claim Divine Inspiration and private revelation. and further claim "this way and no other" you are not a nutcase at all, but you will honestly tell me that your direct experience of divinity said "I am Jesus, this way and no other" and handed you a bible? perhaps you interpret your experience thru the pattern your mind 'expects'? because i will tell you with complete sincerity, that everyday, ever hour any minute when i still my thoughts and open my eyes i can hear the voice of god ringing throughout creation. reminding me how easy and beautiful the flow of life really is even in thru troubled water. its all waves, you chose which to ride. everyone finds their own path to god if they truly look, revelation is only private if you keep it to yourself, it comes again with the dawn of each day, rise of every moon. the orbit of any electron. or any other way humans chose to measure time. like soooo many other thing such single point distinctions really dont matter to God, and it would be so much better if they didnt matter so much to so many humans. its easy. really.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #57 February 27, 2004 Zenister, It does not bother me that you don't believe me. I can tell you without a doubt that I have experienced private revelation. I have not revealed that revelation because exactly as you said, it was private. I can only tell you that it proved to me the existence of one God and one Truth. I don't need anyone else to believe me on this. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #58 February 27, 2004 read again, i have no doubt of Divine inspiration occurs daily. i said i do believe you and asked for clarification.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #59 February 27, 2004 Sorry Zenister, I misunderstood you. My reading comprehension has not been good since my head injury. What is it you want clarification on? Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
North95 0 #60 February 27, 2004 Quote as if your ancestors didn’t scribble it themselves with their feces stained hands I kind of resent that. My ancestors wrote that very carefully, didn't scribble it, and feces stained hands? Handwashing has been a very big thing amoungst my ancestors for thousands of years, long before germs were "discovered." NorthRepetition does not transform a lie into a truth. Franklin D. Roosevelt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #61 February 27, 2004 Quotehe isn’t male. she doesn’t care what you call him. she isn’t female either. he isnt human and is so far beyond the conception of gender the words are meaningless he is greater than your tiny mind can comprehend. she is greater than my tiny mind will ever know. you are not separated from him. you never were. he doesn’t stop speaking to anyone ever and doesn’t need any 'moral leadership' from you, your pastor or your church to reach humanity she doesnt want your blood, your money or your prayers he just wants you to live and love and become more than you have been she will help, if you listen if you commit your energy to it. Where did you get this information? QuoteDivinity is not limited by the dictates of the pathetic book you hold aloft and worship. . . You got a different book, do ya? . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yourmomma 0 #62 February 27, 2004 ***What is it you want clarification on? Whether or not head trauma and epiphanies have a causative relationship. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydyvr 0 #63 February 27, 2004 QuoteQuote as if your ancestors didn’t scribble it themselves with their feces stained hands I kind of resent that. Don't bother with resentment, North. That kind of commentary just denotes a very deep seated anger or hatred towards Christianity for one reason or another. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Maxim 0 #64 February 27, 2004 The thing i hate is when people fight about religions.. Belive what you want and live by it. dont try and force your belifs upon others. Where did zenister get his information. iam sure he is just trying to explain what god means to him. Life is Great. Even Greater what we do with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #65 February 27, 2004 QuoteQuotehe isn’t male. she doesn’t care what you call him. she isn’t female either. he isnt human and is so far beyond the conception of gender the words are meaningless he is greater than your tiny mind can comprehend. she is greater than my tiny mind will ever know. you are not separated from him. you never were. he doesn’t stop speaking to anyone ever and doesn’t need any 'moral leadership' from you, your pastor or your church to reach humanity she doesnt want your blood, your money or your prayers he just wants you to live and love and become more than you have been she will help, if you listen if you commit your energy to it. QuoteDivinity is not limited by the dictates of the pathetic book you hold aloft and worship. . . You got a different book, do ya? every book written thus far, including the christian's bible, religious in intent or no, the message is everywhere in everything, have you really looked? QuoteWhere did you get this information? direct observation, or do you believe God has any reason to hide from you? cant you see the waves?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #66 February 27, 2004 QuoteThe fact that people like you dont want to accept him, is your problem....it may not present a problem now in 2004, but rest assured, it will when you stand before him and try to explain your rejection of his sacrifice. No 16 QuoteChristianity is a continuation of the Judeo religion, as per the Old Testament being followed by the New Testament. However, there is only 1 Bible that can be called the definitive WORD of God No 51 QuotePeople who don't share that with you will never understand it. Walking the earth with faith in God is a level of peace and joy non-Christians can't experience. No 13 QuoteThere are none so blind as those who will not see...and in your case, I guess its just you dont have the smarts to see. However, that is the choice God has given you. No 13 again. QuoteThere is also something called Divine Inspiration and private revelation. At the risk of being called a nutcase, I personally have experienced both. So much so, that I am convinced there is only one God and one truth. No. 76 Quotebelief? you dont need it direct observation is significant enough, it takes some practice (as nearly everything does) but its really so stunningly simple once you look for yourself, divinity doenst hide, go outside and look, listen and stop thinking about it. defy dogma you dont need any of it. the word of man keeps you from hearing the voice of god. No. 6 Come on guys, you're not even trying there's at least another 500 to go. My personal favourite it no 32. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ripple 0 #67 February 27, 2004 Quote oh i'm going many places and none of them have names you've ever heard... actually i use those terms intentionally as it (annoys the shit out of you fundamentalists and far more importantly) highlights one of the fundamental misconceptions you christians have about God. he isn’t male. she doesn’t care what you call him. she isn’t female either. he isnt human and is so far beyond the conception of gender the words are meaningless he is greater than your tiny mind can comprehend. she is greater than my tiny mind will ever know. you are not separated from him. you never were. he doesn’t stop speaking to anyone ever and doesn’t need any 'moral leadership' from you, your pastor or your church to reach humanity she doesnt want your blood, your money or your prayers he just wants you to live and love and become more than you have been she will help, if you listen if you commit your energy to it. i'm not trying to cater to anyone. i'm trying to help you open your eyes and throw off the narrow conception of divinity your dogma allows you to have... Divinity is not limited by the dictates of the pathetic book you hold aloft and worship as if your ancestors didn’t scribble it themselves with their feces stained hands...because as much as you wish to pretend otherwise they did! however that great achievement doesn’t change the nature of divinity or humanity's experience of it, it is simply one testament, and a reflection of the culture that created that it, and there is soooooooooo much more to God. you wont hear, wont listen at all however.....you never learned to look for yourself without the crutch of another man's vision of god... oh how very little you do realize... I don’t have to try..I can hear her voice on the evenings wind right now...i'm sorry if you cant, as there is sooooooo much music you will never know.....but clutch your security blanket tighter if it helps you sleep thru the night, just don’t pretend what you believe affects anyone or their relationship with God. You can have your blood and your guilt, we'll be out dancing in her creation. excuse the howls.... Fantastic! You've put into words exactly what I feel, and you've done it bloody eloquently too!Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Stumpy 284 #68 February 27, 2004 Thats funny. Its amazing how closely it fits some of the arguments, both for and against!Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites souleh 0 #69 February 27, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteYes but God didn't write the book, The book was written by men. When I last checked, none of the books of the Bible were authored by Jesus. History dictates that the Bible was written by men who walked and talked with Jesus himself. There is also something called Divine Inspiration and private revelation. At the risk of being called a nutcase, I personally have experienced both. So much so, that I am convinced there is only one God and one truth. Chris Um, check history again. The men that wrote the book only shared the names of the apostles - the didn't write the gospels. In fact, IIRC from the Seminary, John was the first gospel written - almost 50 years after Jesus died. The average life span back then would have had all the apostles dead by then. Divine inspiration is a faith based issue. If you are not Catholic, Christian, etc....that means the book was written by men and thus is flawed. Quoting lines from a book they have no faith in will not help you win any arguments with them. some quotes from one of my favorite movies: Quote You're saying that having beliefs is a bad thing? I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. When are you people going to learn? It's not about who's right or wrong. No denomination's nailed it yet, and they never will because they're all too self-righteous to realize that it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith. Your hearts are in the right place, but your brains need to wake up. Church laws are fallible because they're created by man. In other words: religion should be a blessing, not a burden -- it should be about ideas, not strict beliefs. Hear hear. Couldn't have said it better myself. 'buttplugs? where?' - geno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuteless 1 #70 February 27, 2004 Re who wrote the Bible: GOD wrote it, through those who He inspired, 41 writers over a 1500 year period. "Knowing this first, that NO prophecy of scripture is of ANY private interpretation, For the prophecy came not in old time by the "will of men" but (by) holy men of God, who spoke as they were moved (inspired) by the Holy Ghost" (2nd Peter 1:20-21. "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2nd Timothy 3:16 "And who as I shall call, and shall declare it , and set it in order FOR ME, since I appointed the ancient people?and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them (those who God appointed to do so) show unto them (Isaiah 44:7) You can ignore these things if you wish, but God has clearly stated that HE wrote theHis Holy WORD....and its not the product of someone who sat down one day and decided to write his own thoughts. The scriptures are from the mind of GOD....no one else. Bill Cole Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jaaska 0 #71 February 27, 2004 Quotenot quite true. Christianity is a continuation of the Judeo religion, as per the Old Testament being followed by the New Testament. However, there is only 1 Bible that can be called the definitive WORD of God, and that is the King James version of 1611which contains both Testaments, a total of 66 books. The King James version 1611 is not more true than any other version of Bible. It was compiled by a group of theologians by the authorization of the King James I (that's how it got its name). I'm not denying that the language in this particular version is very beautiful - that is, of course, if you are into 17th century poetry and prose. One has to, however, recognize that the version was done by committee of experts and it was more or less translated and published for the King, nobel men, King's court etc. When it was first published, the lexicon used contained high number of loanwords from French and Latin (see to whom it was written). Example (from the original version) (St. Paul's Letter to the Corinthians (1611) Ch. 13) Quote1. Though I speake with the tongues of men & of Angels, and haue not charity, I am become as sounding brasse or a tinkling cymbal. (Italics added) charity is clearly a loanword from Latin charitas (=love). There was, almost 100 years earlier, an English version of the Bible (Tyndale's New Testament Worms edition, 1526) that used the term love in the same passage. Worms edition was a translation for ordinary men (townsmen, craftsmen, shopkeepers etc.) and was probably a lot more understandable for the ordinary people than the version 1611 (even after that version was published). Quote...tonges of men and angels, and yet had no love, I were even as soundynge brasse... As you clearly can see, the writing conventions have changed, also there were numerous conventions used at that time (e.g. letter v). So, first of all, you cannot really say that you follow the original version, since you clearly do not. Secondly, stating that King James version of Bible could be better, closer to the word of God, or indeed the true word of God is hypocrisy. It was, after all, translated in the name of the King (James I). The translation of that time did not take into account some of the earliest Christian texts but was collected mainly through late Latin and/or early French sources. I find it very irritating, when I come across people, who actually argue that this particular version is the "only real version". Also, none of the characters mentioned in the Bible spoke English (or French). Most of them did not even speak Latin (apart from the later characters). So if you want to find yourself the true word of God, try something a bit older and NOT in English (did you know that there is no such thing as perfect translation - in fact whenever something is translated, the message ALWAYS changes a bit? (semantics etc.)) People are speaking about "true, living faith/religion" and at the same time they are quoting an almost 400 year old, yet altered (writing conventions), piece of text and actually believing this text is somehow more true/holy than some other ones. Quotes such: The earth is the Lord's,and the fullness thereof, the world, and they that dwell thereinQuote or No man taketh my life from me, but I lay it down of myself*** are not part of living language. (Or is this someone's vernacular language? I don't think so!) Language is changing all the time - the translations should follow. The ideas should be easily understandable and readable. Although, like earlier mentioned, the language is in the 1611 version (verses-wise (if you're in to poetry) etc.) is very beautiful. However, if you want people to study and learn more about the bible, this version should not be the first one for them to read. Most of the Bible translations into other languages than English are NOT based on this particular translation (or on English). 1611 is just one of many translations - there is no ultimate real translation of the Bible (like there is no one true church either). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #72 February 27, 2004 Very well said!_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuteless 1 #73 February 27, 2004 No, its quite true. God Himself inspired those who wrote the original transcripts, and HE guided them to their conclusion as the king James Bible of 1611. God doesnt do things like mankind does. God writes His WORD, and directs the entire project to its completeion as HE wants it tobe. He doesnt hand it to men, and then go on vacation, hoping it will be acceptable when He returns. HE alone inspires those who wrote and those over many years who translated it and finished it as HIS WORD. The more modern versions were printed for a profit motivation, and they all have a copyright on their versions. Imagine the arrogance of man, thinking they alone OWN God's WORD. What foolishness. The King James version is the only one that has no copyright....it belongs to God and to all mankind, and no one can put a copyright on it. The KJV was first published in London England, through authority of the Crown of England. There is so much more I could tell you about WHY that happened, but it would take much time, and much forum. So very much more!!!!! Bill Cole Bill Cole Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites souleh 0 #74 February 27, 2004 Okay, so how do you decide which versions are those inspired by God and those which are purely man-made and wrong? Surely you're chosing as a man, so that makes the choice invalid? Sorry, little confused there. 'buttplugs? where?' - geno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jaaska 0 #75 February 27, 2004 QuoteIn using "she and her" you are only showing your lack of knowledge about the topic. There is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, and none of them are female. I realize you are trying to cater to the feminist movement, but its a riduiculous foolish showing of lack of knowledge...nothing more keep trying...you are getting no where fast. Bill Cole Again... it's the t-r-a-n-s-l-a-t-i-o-n you are talking about. Btw. In Finnish, you cannot distinguish gender from the pronoun form. She/he = hän, her/his = hänen etc. So, you can see that the whole gender issue is cultural/language-bound. If you think that God is bound by these same limitations, well... When you are defining God "male", because English happens to use male pronoun form when talking about "him", you are in fact creating a false god. Do you believe he's got a beard, too? 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skydyvr 0 #63 February 27, 2004 QuoteQuote as if your ancestors didn’t scribble it themselves with their feces stained hands I kind of resent that. Don't bother with resentment, North. That kind of commentary just denotes a very deep seated anger or hatred towards Christianity for one reason or another. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxim 0 #64 February 27, 2004 The thing i hate is when people fight about religions.. Belive what you want and live by it. dont try and force your belifs upon others. Where did zenister get his information. iam sure he is just trying to explain what god means to him. Life is Great. Even Greater what we do with it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #65 February 27, 2004 QuoteQuotehe isn’t male. she doesn’t care what you call him. she isn’t female either. he isnt human and is so far beyond the conception of gender the words are meaningless he is greater than your tiny mind can comprehend. she is greater than my tiny mind will ever know. you are not separated from him. you never were. he doesn’t stop speaking to anyone ever and doesn’t need any 'moral leadership' from you, your pastor or your church to reach humanity she doesnt want your blood, your money or your prayers he just wants you to live and love and become more than you have been she will help, if you listen if you commit your energy to it. QuoteDivinity is not limited by the dictates of the pathetic book you hold aloft and worship. . . You got a different book, do ya? every book written thus far, including the christian's bible, religious in intent or no, the message is everywhere in everything, have you really looked? QuoteWhere did you get this information? direct observation, or do you believe God has any reason to hide from you? cant you see the waves?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #66 February 27, 2004 QuoteThe fact that people like you dont want to accept him, is your problem....it may not present a problem now in 2004, but rest assured, it will when you stand before him and try to explain your rejection of his sacrifice. No 16 QuoteChristianity is a continuation of the Judeo religion, as per the Old Testament being followed by the New Testament. However, there is only 1 Bible that can be called the definitive WORD of God No 51 QuotePeople who don't share that with you will never understand it. Walking the earth with faith in God is a level of peace and joy non-Christians can't experience. No 13 QuoteThere are none so blind as those who will not see...and in your case, I guess its just you dont have the smarts to see. However, that is the choice God has given you. No 13 again. QuoteThere is also something called Divine Inspiration and private revelation. At the risk of being called a nutcase, I personally have experienced both. So much so, that I am convinced there is only one God and one truth. No. 76 Quotebelief? you dont need it direct observation is significant enough, it takes some practice (as nearly everything does) but its really so stunningly simple once you look for yourself, divinity doenst hide, go outside and look, listen and stop thinking about it. defy dogma you dont need any of it. the word of man keeps you from hearing the voice of god. No. 6 Come on guys, you're not even trying there's at least another 500 to go. My personal favourite it no 32. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ripple 0 #67 February 27, 2004 Quote oh i'm going many places and none of them have names you've ever heard... actually i use those terms intentionally as it (annoys the shit out of you fundamentalists and far more importantly) highlights one of the fundamental misconceptions you christians have about God. he isn’t male. she doesn’t care what you call him. she isn’t female either. he isnt human and is so far beyond the conception of gender the words are meaningless he is greater than your tiny mind can comprehend. she is greater than my tiny mind will ever know. you are not separated from him. you never were. he doesn’t stop speaking to anyone ever and doesn’t need any 'moral leadership' from you, your pastor or your church to reach humanity she doesnt want your blood, your money or your prayers he just wants you to live and love and become more than you have been she will help, if you listen if you commit your energy to it. i'm not trying to cater to anyone. i'm trying to help you open your eyes and throw off the narrow conception of divinity your dogma allows you to have... Divinity is not limited by the dictates of the pathetic book you hold aloft and worship as if your ancestors didn’t scribble it themselves with their feces stained hands...because as much as you wish to pretend otherwise they did! however that great achievement doesn’t change the nature of divinity or humanity's experience of it, it is simply one testament, and a reflection of the culture that created that it, and there is soooooooooo much more to God. you wont hear, wont listen at all however.....you never learned to look for yourself without the crutch of another man's vision of god... oh how very little you do realize... I don’t have to try..I can hear her voice on the evenings wind right now...i'm sorry if you cant, as there is sooooooo much music you will never know.....but clutch your security blanket tighter if it helps you sleep thru the night, just don’t pretend what you believe affects anyone or their relationship with God. You can have your blood and your guilt, we'll be out dancing in her creation. excuse the howls.... Fantastic! You've put into words exactly what I feel, and you've done it bloody eloquently too!Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #68 February 27, 2004 Thats funny. Its amazing how closely it fits some of the arguments, both for and against!Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
souleh 0 #69 February 27, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteYes but God didn't write the book, The book was written by men. When I last checked, none of the books of the Bible were authored by Jesus. History dictates that the Bible was written by men who walked and talked with Jesus himself. There is also something called Divine Inspiration and private revelation. At the risk of being called a nutcase, I personally have experienced both. So much so, that I am convinced there is only one God and one truth. Chris Um, check history again. The men that wrote the book only shared the names of the apostles - the didn't write the gospels. In fact, IIRC from the Seminary, John was the first gospel written - almost 50 years after Jesus died. The average life span back then would have had all the apostles dead by then. Divine inspiration is a faith based issue. If you are not Catholic, Christian, etc....that means the book was written by men and thus is flawed. Quoting lines from a book they have no faith in will not help you win any arguments with them. some quotes from one of my favorite movies: Quote You're saying that having beliefs is a bad thing? I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. When are you people going to learn? It's not about who's right or wrong. No denomination's nailed it yet, and they never will because they're all too self-righteous to realize that it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith. Your hearts are in the right place, but your brains need to wake up. Church laws are fallible because they're created by man. In other words: religion should be a blessing, not a burden -- it should be about ideas, not strict beliefs. Hear hear. Couldn't have said it better myself. 'buttplugs? where?' - geno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #70 February 27, 2004 Re who wrote the Bible: GOD wrote it, through those who He inspired, 41 writers over a 1500 year period. "Knowing this first, that NO prophecy of scripture is of ANY private interpretation, For the prophecy came not in old time by the "will of men" but (by) holy men of God, who spoke as they were moved (inspired) by the Holy Ghost" (2nd Peter 1:20-21. "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2nd Timothy 3:16 "And who as I shall call, and shall declare it , and set it in order FOR ME, since I appointed the ancient people?and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them (those who God appointed to do so) show unto them (Isaiah 44:7) You can ignore these things if you wish, but God has clearly stated that HE wrote theHis Holy WORD....and its not the product of someone who sat down one day and decided to write his own thoughts. The scriptures are from the mind of GOD....no one else. Bill Cole Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaaska 0 #71 February 27, 2004 Quotenot quite true. Christianity is a continuation of the Judeo religion, as per the Old Testament being followed by the New Testament. However, there is only 1 Bible that can be called the definitive WORD of God, and that is the King James version of 1611which contains both Testaments, a total of 66 books. The King James version 1611 is not more true than any other version of Bible. It was compiled by a group of theologians by the authorization of the King James I (that's how it got its name). I'm not denying that the language in this particular version is very beautiful - that is, of course, if you are into 17th century poetry and prose. One has to, however, recognize that the version was done by committee of experts and it was more or less translated and published for the King, nobel men, King's court etc. When it was first published, the lexicon used contained high number of loanwords from French and Latin (see to whom it was written). Example (from the original version) (St. Paul's Letter to the Corinthians (1611) Ch. 13) Quote1. Though I speake with the tongues of men & of Angels, and haue not charity, I am become as sounding brasse or a tinkling cymbal. (Italics added) charity is clearly a loanword from Latin charitas (=love). There was, almost 100 years earlier, an English version of the Bible (Tyndale's New Testament Worms edition, 1526) that used the term love in the same passage. Worms edition was a translation for ordinary men (townsmen, craftsmen, shopkeepers etc.) and was probably a lot more understandable for the ordinary people than the version 1611 (even after that version was published). Quote...tonges of men and angels, and yet had no love, I were even as soundynge brasse... As you clearly can see, the writing conventions have changed, also there were numerous conventions used at that time (e.g. letter v). So, first of all, you cannot really say that you follow the original version, since you clearly do not. Secondly, stating that King James version of Bible could be better, closer to the word of God, or indeed the true word of God is hypocrisy. It was, after all, translated in the name of the King (James I). The translation of that time did not take into account some of the earliest Christian texts but was collected mainly through late Latin and/or early French sources. I find it very irritating, when I come across people, who actually argue that this particular version is the "only real version". Also, none of the characters mentioned in the Bible spoke English (or French). Most of them did not even speak Latin (apart from the later characters). So if you want to find yourself the true word of God, try something a bit older and NOT in English (did you know that there is no such thing as perfect translation - in fact whenever something is translated, the message ALWAYS changes a bit? (semantics etc.)) People are speaking about "true, living faith/religion" and at the same time they are quoting an almost 400 year old, yet altered (writing conventions), piece of text and actually believing this text is somehow more true/holy than some other ones. Quotes such: The earth is the Lord's,and the fullness thereof, the world, and they that dwell thereinQuote or No man taketh my life from me, but I lay it down of myself*** are not part of living language. (Or is this someone's vernacular language? I don't think so!) Language is changing all the time - the translations should follow. The ideas should be easily understandable and readable. Although, like earlier mentioned, the language is in the 1611 version (verses-wise (if you're in to poetry) etc.) is very beautiful. However, if you want people to study and learn more about the bible, this version should not be the first one for them to read. Most of the Bible translations into other languages than English are NOT based on this particular translation (or on English). 1611 is just one of many translations - there is no ultimate real translation of the Bible (like there is no one true church either). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #72 February 27, 2004 Very well said!_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #73 February 27, 2004 No, its quite true. God Himself inspired those who wrote the original transcripts, and HE guided them to their conclusion as the king James Bible of 1611. God doesnt do things like mankind does. God writes His WORD, and directs the entire project to its completeion as HE wants it tobe. He doesnt hand it to men, and then go on vacation, hoping it will be acceptable when He returns. HE alone inspires those who wrote and those over many years who translated it and finished it as HIS WORD. The more modern versions were printed for a profit motivation, and they all have a copyright on their versions. Imagine the arrogance of man, thinking they alone OWN God's WORD. What foolishness. The King James version is the only one that has no copyright....it belongs to God and to all mankind, and no one can put a copyright on it. The KJV was first published in London England, through authority of the Crown of England. There is so much more I could tell you about WHY that happened, but it would take much time, and much forum. So very much more!!!!! Bill Cole Bill Cole Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
souleh 0 #74 February 27, 2004 Okay, so how do you decide which versions are those inspired by God and those which are purely man-made and wrong? Surely you're chosing as a man, so that makes the choice invalid? Sorry, little confused there. 'buttplugs? where?' - geno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaaska 0 #75 February 27, 2004 QuoteIn using "she and her" you are only showing your lack of knowledge about the topic. There is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, and none of them are female. I realize you are trying to cater to the feminist movement, but its a riduiculous foolish showing of lack of knowledge...nothing more keep trying...you are getting no where fast. Bill Cole Again... it's the t-r-a-n-s-l-a-t-i-o-n you are talking about. Btw. In Finnish, you cannot distinguish gender from the pronoun form. She/he = hän, her/his = hänen etc. So, you can see that the whole gender issue is cultural/language-bound. If you think that God is bound by these same limitations, well... When you are defining God "male", because English happens to use male pronoun form when talking about "him", you are in fact creating a false god. Do you believe he's got a beard, too? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
