Mel Gibson's "Passion" film

[pajarito 0]

It happens! Gotta go for now... Out...

[sdgregory 0]

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The average life span back then would have had all the apostles dead by then.

Huh? Does not the word average mena that some live longer and some live less? Not possible that John lived longer? Wow you must have a time travel machine or some amzing powers or access to death records no one else has ever seen.

As far as religion, religion is ritualistic conformity. I have a relationship with a living loving God.


Hey Meunkel,

I'm with you. I have seen to many things to tell me that my faith is real. Including hearing the voice of God on one occassion.

And I do not care if people think I am crazy either.
I don't live for them, but for Him.

[Zenister 0]

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Re who wrote the Bible:

GOD wrote it, through those who He inspired, 41 writers over a 1500 year period.

"Knowing this first, that NO prophecy of scripture is of ANY private interpretation, For the prophecy came not in old time by the "will of men" but (by) holy men of God, who spoke as they were moved (inspired) by the Holy Ghost" (2nd Peter 1:20-21.

"ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2nd Timothy 3:16

"And who as I shall call, and shall declare it , and set it in order FOR ME, since I appointed the ancient people?and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them (those who God appointed to do so) show unto them (Isaiah 44:7)

You can ignore these things if you wish, but God has clearly stated that HE wrote theHis Holy WORD....and its not the product of someone who sat down one day and decided to write his own thoughts. The scriptures are from the mind of GOD....no one else.

you like the rest of your faith continues to assert this, your continued assertion in no way makes it any more true, and using your 'source' as proof of itself is simply ignorant, but then i find christianity is often a refuge for those who do not wish to think or see for themselves

"this is God's SOLE WORD!"
"how do you know?"
"it says it is, GOD wouldnt lie!"
"uh but it was written by MAN"
"INSPIRED by GOD!"
"how do you know?"
"it says it is night here see!!!!! werent you listening?!"

such lame circular reasoning, please...your logic is fundamentally flawed, as is your understanding of divinity. Continue to confine God to the limits of your imagination and the 'records' of the bloody bronze age culture you seem to think was the most pivotal moment for humanity. It wasnt, it wont be, and someday when all of your apocalyptic ravings have still not come to pass you may go look for her without the filter of another MAN's vision. Live and die in ignorance if you chose perhaps you'll figure it out eventually. But i somehow doubt it...you simply cannot see past the narrow confines you attempt to fit God into...

It isnt as if your source is even consistent in its depiction of your god and his morals in the first place, no matter how many believers have edited it.

when you can talk to me of God using your own words and experience and not blithely quote your scripture as if its proof of anything, i'll accept your word for what it is, a personal testimony on your experiences with divinity, as is your simply mouthing the words given to you by another…. Sorry but their vision of divinity stops at their cultural frame of reference, and while her word is there as well as it is in everthing, you cant seem to clean the pride and arrogance from your eyes to see its is also in more places in more ways than you can imagine and is not be limited to your dogma no matter how often you hold it aloft claiming sole truth and revelation.


You just cant accept that God is greater than your conception of her can you??
Why do you feel it necessary to understand everything, and try to fit divinity into the tiny box of your belief? I guess it helps you sleep at night beilieving it will all be ok because my pastor and his book tells me I am saved [I] and ps we still want your offerings to tell you more about God[/I]

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

How about this - biblical scholars all have confirmed that the apostles did not write the gospels. Look it up.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[pajarito 0]

Got one more before I have to go. Jesus was witnessed to have been killed and resurrected just as he predicted himself. He endorsed the Bible as the Word of God. That's good enough for me. Be back this afternoon. Very interesting conversation. You guys be nice!

[sdgregory 0]

Same here, as an Engineer I am a logical person (mostly). It was reasoningout the scriptures that brought me to a point that they were real. It still required a step of faith however, since proof was not forth coming. Once I took that leap of faith however. God opened my eyes to many wonderful things.

Previous post of mine (which are posted after yours that I am responding to) try to say the same thing.

[chuteless 1]

That is NOT in my King James Bible, and Im sorry to say, yours made not be the King James. I have taken great pains to make sure mine is.

Bill Cole

[LuvToFly 0]

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Weren't we talking about Mel Gibson's "Passion" film?

North

You are right... that is where this all started!

I saw the movie yesterday, and a few impressions-

1) Yes, it was very violent and spared nothing in that regard. That was a little disturbing to me, and did not initially know how to feel about that - I mean, after all, this person was being brutally tortured and enduring seemingly constant beatings. Seemed very excessive.

But..

As I read the gospel accounts of these events, the brutality appears to have really happened in the way it did. I think we folks living in the 21st Century just don't really understand what went on there because our country is so much more civilized.

It is recorded that he was whipped close to the point of death with whips that had metal pieces in the end of them. This would tear the flesh each time the person would be struck - there would have to be blood just pouring out of these wounds as they were deep. This was no simple "caning" that was being done to him.

2) Some have said they felt Pontius Pilate was being portrayed as too nice - but I did not get that feeling at all. He seemed to be a pure politician of his day. Looking to do whatever he thought would keep enough peace to not have a dissention rise up to Cearars's attention. It appeared to be pure CYA -

3) The walk with the cross through the street was excruciatingly brutal in that He (Jesus) kept falling down completely exhausted, so weak he could barely raise his head.

I believe a big part of the reason for this actually happening was not just exhausion, because Jesus was raised a tough carpenter and not the frail Jesus that many movies depict. No, I believe one of the big reasons was because of loss of blood. Who ever was beaten like this person was would have lost tons of blood from their wounds. I am amazed frankly that he was able to keep moving at all! Folks were not exactly whimps back then in terms of physical stamina. I believe he probably had internal injuries as well from the brutality in the prison.

The crucifixion scene was very distrubing.

But isn't this all supposed to be very disturbing?

It's hard to watch, and a little over the top with the effects in terms of wounds = but it seems clear the intent is to try to get folks to understand what being beaten this savagely would do to a person; what being crucified really meant. But also what losing a son really means. Mary's grief over her child was much more in keeping with reality than some have imagined. This was a big factor in the movie as well.

I came away with a further appreciation as to how one person could have sacrificed so much, for the greater good of everyone else. And that is what shines through for me -

If ever there was a sign that God loves you, then what his son (for those of you who believe) endured on your behalf is so great an example of that -

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[sdgregory 0]

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I've got a better way to go home. Have a brawl with a coworker. I tried that yesterday, got suspended and sent home!

North

HAH! That's funny! Of course I meant my spiritual home, but that was still funny!

[littledebbie000 0]

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Weren't we talking about Mel Gibson's "Passion" film?

North

I just saw this last night and found it to be a very powerful movie. I felt that it was showing just how human Jesus was and that his suffering should not be taken for granted. Not just the physical pain, but the emotional pain as he, in a sense, asked if there was any other way that it could all be done without him being sacrificed. I came out from the movie wanting to learn more that I have ever wanted to.

Now to the non-religious side to it, the actual quality of the film....I was amazed at how well this movie was made. Yes, it was very graphic, but the point was made well. The emotion in the eyes of all of the actors was haunting. Maia Morgenstern as Mary affected me the most. You could almost feel her pain as if it were happening right at that moment in front of you.

I think that even a non-believer would enjoy this movie if they were to watch it without looking for a reason to hate it.

[chuteless 1]

You know Zenister, there is a passage of scripture that really refers to conversing with poeple with your mentalit toward the scriptures.

It says " Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like him" (Proverbs 26:4)

Wisdom is the principal thing, therefore get wisdom, and with all thy getting, get (Spiritual) understanding (Proverbs 4:7

O ye simple, understand wisdom; and ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart (Proverbs 8:5)

These were written by the wisest man who ever lived, Solomon.

I think he had a good point.



Bill Cole

[Guest]

Oh! Divine Right of Kings and all that.

Sorry, I stand corrected.

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Zenister 0]

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You know Zenister, there is a passage of scripture that really refers to conversing with poeple with your mentalit toward the scriptures.

It says " Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like him" (Proverbs 26:4)

Wisdom is the principal thing, therefore get wisdom, and with all thy getting, get (Spiritual) understanding (Proverbs 4:7

O ye simple, understand wisdom; and ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart (Proverbs 8:5)

These were written by the wisest man who ever lived, Solomon.

I think he had a good point.

other than your biased fictional reference, cite one source supporting Solomon as "the wisest man who ever lived" should I pick apart his culture mores in reference to your book? Seems Solomon has a different idea of what constitutes a ‘marriage’ than the you modern Christians…did God change his mind? Again? Geezzz cant your God be consistent for once?!?

again when you can speak to me of your own personal experience and describe your understanding and relationship with God without resorting to the crutch of other men’s vision and dogma, i'll give real credence to your words. until then your simply mouthing the phrases your church gives you.. tired and contradictory they are not the repository of sole truth..

wisdom is seeking the answers for yourself, not accepting a conveniently vague, politically motivated and highly flawed work of literature as 'gospel' and blinding yourself to the light of divinity as it exists in the world here now for everyone without the guilt of your cultural mythos...

"Dont understand?"- look in this book it has all the answers
"Still doesnt make sense" -come to our church we'll explain it all
"this makes no sense, its blatantly self serving, shows obvious cultural bias and contradicts itself repeatedly" - you must have faith, just relax and let us show you...
[I]and eventually[/I]
"you want money for that which God gives freely?" -of course its a business we all have to live, we've found we can do it by preying on your fears and convincing you to support us.

"think what we want you to, believe what we tell you, there is no other way, God told us so right here ( ignore the eraser marks), its divinely inspired word we swear!”

but thats ok, as we see your security blanket gives you all the answers, nice and easy, no individual thought or effort required..just let the martyrs do it all for you, how easy to get your wings.. fortunately more and more people are waking up from the coma your dogma has put them in and seeing the divine with their own eyes..

Go back to sleep....safe and ignorant....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Luv2Fall 0]

sdgregory -

Same here as well....................wanted straight answers......didn't want to follow blindly. The more I read and studied the more I believed inspite of my skeptical nature. Faith does take an integral part.......a concept that some don't find worthy of their time or intellect. As you know, Thomas had a problem with faith.

Having said the above, I don't participate in organized religion for various reasons......some "legit" some personal, but my faith is based soley between God and myself..............as is my salvation.

As for the movie, looking forward to seeing it as does my wife. The reviews, so far, are mixed as it is for any movie.


Bill -

I study the King James Version, but believe that's the "best we have". Other English versions prior to the 1611 are excellent also. Unfortunately, the original manuscripts of the Bible have perished.....English translations are based upon "the most ancient copies made from the original manuscripts". There are quite a few but the three principle ones are the "The Codex Sinaiticus", "The Dodex Alexandrinus", and "the Codex Vaticanus". These copies later made up the ancient versions namely the Septuagint, Vulgate, etc. Bottom line, for me, is that one must study some of the more ancient versions to draw upon a more accurate understanding what is exactly being said in the scriptures. Granted, I'm limited to "NT Greek" as I had some formal training in the same exclusively for the purpose of my search for answers. I have found that the English language can be a bit limited to wit: the english word "love" has at least three entirely different meanings each of which puts a passage in the NT in an entirely different light........and "revelation" of the same.

You have brought up some points that interest me concerning the English language, London etc., but I have to conclude, for me anyway, that the 1611 is pretty much the best we have relative to an English translation. It's the only English version I own...........I agree about the Zondervon thing.

[smiles 0]

Mel Gibson cannot be faulted for sharing his religious passion through film, but he can be faulted for The Passion of the Christ, which falls prey to the same mistakes as every other Bible-based movie. It is long, relentless and entirely self-important --

He wanted us to see all the horror so we could understand "the Passion" of the Christ -- and more fully realize the sacrifice Jesus made for the sake of humankind. It's an honourable enough aim for any filmmaker, especially given the rising illiteracy rates and the importance of the Bible as a social, historical and human document. But the film he creates is actually closer to Richard Donner's Superman in spirit than anything remotely Christian.

Like Gibson, Donner also had a childhood hero he dreamed of bringing to the big screen in realistic detail. He wanted to make him appear so real and plausible, we'd believe a man could fly. The heroes may be different, but the motivation behind the films are similar -- to humble and inspire. To make us believe in powers larger than ourselves.

Ironically, the best way to get this point across isn't through detailed realism and "showing" us that it "could really happen," but by tapping in to the limitless powers of the imagination, which helps us understand metaphor and translate it into human action or emotion.

The power of the Bible, and therefore the real power of the Christ story, is the way it inspires us to see what cannot be seen with the naked eye, but with the soul.

Gibson never seems to fully grasp the importance of this point, and so throughout The Passion of The Christ, we get bizarre special-effects sequences showing us everything from female demons and satanic babies, to a Lord of the Rings-styled shot of a sinister figure screaming at the heavens.

Either Gibson should have gone for the textbook translation, Aramaic and all, or he should have opted for the full-on metaphor, replete with dream sequences, prophetic visions and snakes.

With the former, he could have left it up to the audience to decide if Jesus was a prophet, a delusional psychotic, or the "Word made flesh" -- the Son of God. With the latter, he could have afforded himself enough dramatic licence to do whatever he pleased, whether it be indulging his alleged feelings of anti-Semitism, or showing Jesus fly into the heavens to rejoin his Father in paradise.

Gibson wanted it both ways, and that's why The Passion of the Christ never quite succeeds as a motion picture because -- like the temple after the Crucifixion -- it is "rent in twain from top to bottom": a hollow symbol of piety born from the ignorant mind of an all-too powerful, all-too affluent hypocrite.

The real tragedy of this film is the way it misses the narrative point of its very subject. The last day of Jesus's life takes up no more than two pages of scripture in each gospel, as written four times over by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

These four holy men figured Jesus's death was nowhere near as important as His life, words and teachings. So they spent very little time describing His torture, pain and death, where Gibson blows almost every penny of his budget creating a horror-laden martyrdom he can only imagine.

The Christ story is about finding forgiveness instead of inciting anger. It's not about who killed Jesus -- whether it be the high priest Caiaphas, the angry mob, Pilate, Herod or Judas. It's a beautiful story, but nowhere in Gibson's film do we sense this transcendence.

Too concerned with the grit and grime, the blood and betrayal, Gibson sells out to the basest of human sensibilities instead of striving for the truly divine.

SMiles
...the smartest people are those who realize how little they know.

[pajarito 0]

Maybe you’ve elaborated with facts to back up your case earlier and I just haven’t read them. Correct me if I need to read something you’ve provided already before I speak. Taking this comment at its face, however, I have the following rebuttal. So far, I’ve heard most of the common antagonistic responses that non-Christians give in response to Bible reference from you. I can provide evidence to back up my case that the Bible is reliably transmitted and historically accurate. I’ve not heard anything but baseless criticism from you on the subject. Make your case that the Bible and references to it are “biased and fictional. I’d be interested in that debate. I used to be exactly like you in my beliefs. I can testify that, having seen it from both sides of the fence, the way of Jesus is a much harder road. I believe you’re taking the easy way out. It’s easy to do it your own way, make up your own rules, and not be accountable to anyone. I do seek wisdom for myself and do not have a blind faith.

[LuvToFly 0]

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The Christ story is about finding forgiveness instead of inciting anger. It's not about who killed Jesus -- whether it be the high priest Caiaphas, the angry mob, Pilate, Herod or Judas. It's a beautiful story, but nowhere in Gibson's film do we sense this transcendence.

Karen,

Appreciate your well thought out response, and I respect that.

You stated that it is a beautiful story - but in truth, there is nothing beautiful about this story other than the motivation behind it. The story at this point is about betrayal, greed, lust for power, bearing false witness against someone, unquenchable pride, the inner workings that drive one person to abuse another, and the fact that the world killed him who came into the world to love and save it. It is a bane on all of humanity's existance that this even happened - Gods plan to resurrect him or not, it is a most horrifying story.

Most other Jesus movies have focused more on his ministry life, giving less emphasism to the final hours. You know, these blue-eyed frail looking dudes that speak very softly - so as not to offend the audience or to get in their face - But the final hours must be told too, and must be given the same, if not greater access.

The brutality towards Christ is offset by the fact that he had the power to stop it. He had divine power to take anyone who touched him and turn them to stone, to dust, or send 'em to hell if you will. But he did not.

If you or I were being dragged down that street with cross on back, there would be little or nothing we could do to stop it. But Christ layed down his life willingly - and that, you are right, is a beautiful concept. But it is certainly not a beautful story. It is, if anything, a time of inhumane treatment, corruption and greed.

I think where Gibson is coming from is that of a seasoned filmaker, and as someone who has come to know audiences.

I believe he approached this from the angle that the divine, unfortunately, has carried less and less weight in this world. More than ever, life seems to be based on what one can feel, touch, or have. Even the concepts of relationships with deep meaning have many gone by the wayside in exchange for feeling good for a few minutes. Just putting the divine out there should evoke feelings of great identification - but more than any other time in history, it does not.

As a people, we have become a very jaded group. Some would say that a form of numbness abounds, perhaps even some of that coming after Sept 11th. Not resolve, but perhaps the ability to dream or to imagine a bit. It's like we "know better," now.

The U.S. itself has lost ground in it's image as one of the most spiritual countries on earth. While established with the freedom of state ruling religion (or vice versa) as a big part of it, so is the very reality, acknowledgement and sovereignty of God as he is acknowleged and revered through many of our most important founding documents.

For filmakers like Gibson, they have decided, right or wrong, that the only way to reach people is through their emotions. That you cannot appeal to their sense of the divine, believing instead that our spritual senses have been so dulled through the years that the message would no longer be life-changing. And if you say that someone was beaten brutally, he shows them beaten most brutally.

It is one thing to read, "and so the guards beat him and mocked him, laying a crown of thorns upon his head" but quite a another to see that. Things are different when you have to face the reality of things.

There was study some years back about capital punishment. There were a lot of people who supporting capital punishment - but it was interesting to see how many people would not watch someone die, and certainly would not be able to pull the lever themselves. It's easy to believe in things, or not to believe in things, when you are never really forced to look at them realistically.

If imagination is all that is needed to get Gibson's message out, then he could do a public service spot telling everyone that every time they go to a hotel there is a bible there; and that you should read it.

Millions of dollars have been spent on doing special effects trying to show how it looks when someone's head explodes after being shot so it can be shown in some abrasive movie - and most of them - fictional in nature -

This really happened. He really was brutalized, and I think it is important we know that Christ's life was not all about taking walks, blessing people, healing the sick, and preaching. He really, really paid big time for who he was, what he stood for. And understanding more about what the payment entailed, helps to understand what one should be grateful for.

Could it have been done with less graphic violence? Probably. But the intent is clear: Jesus did not live and die in a benevolent society. Instead, he was mocked, beaten, tortured, maligned, slapped, spit upon, cursed at, and ultimate crucified - then he was desserted by his followers who stepped into the shadows as he was accused and put to death. That's a really bad story - but one that has to be told.

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[pajarito 0]

Dude...you and "Smiles" are a typing fools!!!

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[sdgregory 0]

WELL SAID!

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[LuvToFly 0]

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Dude...you and "Smiles" are a typing fools!!!

Close to 100 words per minute!!

Hey, thought this was the unabridged novel forum... you mean it's not??

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[pajarito 0]

I can't think that fast!!!

[LuvToFly 0]

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I can't think that fast!!!

Who said I was thinking?

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[bobsled92 0]

*

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As I enjoy the principle of "The Great *One Being" as a boundless, what do you *base "your beliefs" on, from, or combination of...?
and...(your own quote next)
always interesting to watch someone attack an author when they have no reply to their argument.

no idea what your asking here? from? everything.

belief? you dont need it direct observation is significant enough, it takes some practice (as nearly everything does) but its really so stunningly simple once you look for yourself, divinity doenst hide, go outside and look, listen and stop thinking about it.
defy dogma you dont need any of it. the word of man keeps you from hearing the voice of god.

the assertion that 'God' is 'this' because 'my book says HE is' is ludicrous. Its a rather easy argument to reply to, you'll note the continued lack of coherent response since.

'God' precludes gender. but christians will continue to insist God remain true to their vision of Charlton Heston on a what must be a really uncomfortable stone throne......

please.

_____________________________________________
* I was simple asking "What >DO< you believe in *rather than what you denounce" THat's all

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[aprilcat 0]

I'm glad I went to bed last night and took 'follow this thread' off. I would be out of space in my mailbox. But I took the past 2 1/2 hour finishing this thread and I feel like I've read a novel.

One good thing--its great to see that some people went out and SAW the film and conveyed their interpretations of what is on the screen. I said SCREEN..not Bible. Please don't contrast and compare what I am saying here.
I will see the film because that is my area of study. And I'll try to open a new thread cause Lord/Jehovah/Buddha/Allah knows you won't find my words buried in all this.

Camelot II, the Electric Boogaloo!

[pajarito 0]

I agree. You should start a new thread. A very specific new thread. One with clearly defined boundaries so one doesn't drive all over the road and into the ditches.