Mel Gibson's "Passion" film

[Zenister 0]

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I can provide evidence to back up my case that the Bible is reliably transmitted and historically accurate. I’ve not heard anything but baseless criticism from you on the subject. Make your case that the Bible and references to it are “biased and fictional. I’d be interested in that debate. I used to be exactly like you in my beliefs. I can testify that, having seen it from both sides of the fence, the way of Jesus is a much harder road. I believe you’re taking the easy way out. It’s easy to do it your own way, make up your own rules, and not be accountable to anyone. I do seek wisdom for myself and do not have a blind faith.

really? i'd love to see it, because i've been having this discussion for YEARS and no one from the christian camp has ever shown any evidence that backs their claims of historical accuracy. When examined closely there are far more holes in the texts of your faith than christians will admit...when it comes down to a point by point analysis, they usually start screaming 'metaphor' as the facts dont support their position very well at all...

actually its far easier to place your trust and faith and follow someone else when confronted with the unknown, than it is to seek a path that isnt predefined for you by your church....

christianity is wonderful way, with many benifits and wisdom to be gained on the way, if your a herd animal that needs such comforts and protections to sleep at night...

but it is by no means the only path to God, no matter how much you wish to pretend otherwise...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[chuteless 1]

As usual, Zenister, you are totally wrong.

Christ is the Son of God, and He did say, NO man (including you) comes to the Father but by me (Christ)

You keep flogging a dead horse expecting it to get up and walk.

Believe, in whatever you wish, and suffer the consequences
Bill Cole

[Zenister 0]

its not my horse to flog, but your attempts to pronounce truth and false as if you were God herself are amusing..

you are the one who claims to have all the answers, all from the mythos of an ignorant culture...

how sad to still be so blind having seen and done so many wonderful things
there is far more to divinity than your preconceptions can imagine.

maybe you should look without the blinders sometime...you'd be amazed how beautiful the music really is..

what you percieve to be "the consequences" is a myth. your myth, and has no bearing on my relationship with the divine. I have never been seperated from God and never will be, no matter how much you wish to paint your saviors blood on my forehead, i dont need it..

keep your blindfold if you wish..I will not wear it, nor will i accept the burden of guilt your religion attempts to give mankind, its your life, and your soul, God loves you anyway, no matter how many you attempt to blackmail into accepting your version of divinity..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pajarito 0]

Exactly what issue are you confused about. Starting point.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Folks -

It is pointless to actually "argue" about this topic. There is no winning, no convincing others, etc.

What you are all talking about here is faith.

For some of you, you believe you don't have faith in anything. That is faith. You are hedging your bets on the idea that there really is nothing out there, but like an athiest recently said here - even stating that there IS no God cannot be positively proven. That is faith. Nor can many of the points that everyone is arguing on this thread - in either directions of belief.

I agree 100%. Does God exist? I don't know. Do I believe he does? No. Does it bother me that other people believe he does? No.

The only issue I have is when someone claims that God does exist, and that they have proof, and belittle anyone who doesn't believe their proof, even though it's NOT proof, it's the basis for their faith.

Have all the faith you want, believe whatever you want, just don't try to use faulty circular logic to prove I'm wrong because I don't share your faith.

(You didn't mean you, LuvToFly...it meant anyone who would do that)

[stuffit 0]

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As usual, Zenister, you are totally wrong.

Christ is the Son of God, and He did say, NO man (including you) comes to the Father but by me (Christ)

You keep flogging a dead horse expecting it to get up and walk.

Believe, in whatever you wish, and suffer the consequences
Bill Cole

The funny thing about people that so strictly follow religion, like yourself, is that if you were born in another country with a different religion, you would be spouting off all of these quotes from the book of their religion. Point being that it all comes down to the fact that some people just need to be told how to live their lives, they cannot follow their own path.


Edit: Forgot to ask: What did you believe in before you became a "born again" Christian and how long ago did you have this revelation?

[LuvToFly 0]

No sweat!

"The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment
of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

[NeedToJump 0]

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Believe, in whatever you wish, and suffer the consequences

I've stayed on the sidelines just reading this thread until now, but this sort of statement never makes any sort of sense to me. Isn't God supposed to be forgiving and loving? Aren't we supposed to have free thought and be allowed to make our own decisions, you know, free will? Why then would God punish us for believing the wrong thing?

I do not believe in your views of God, but if they turn out to be correct why would I be punished for thinking for myself and coming to my own conclusions about spirituality? If you have a kid and he makes a mistake, you don't banish him and sentence him to eternal torture and suffering right? No, you would explain to him what he has done wrong and allow him to learn from his mistakes.

And no, I am not saying that I am mistaken in my believes, nor am I trying that say that anyone else here is. I am trying to understand what consequences there could be for having my own beliefs and why.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[chuteless 1]

Oh I beklieved in Jesus Christ since I was old enough to walk to Sunday School and Church. For many years, I didnt attend a church, but always in my heart I knew there was God, and knew Chrit was His Son.

I wasnt "born again" until 1990, and was baptized that year.

The more I searched, the more I found that Christ truly IS the way...there is NO OTHER.



Bill Cole

[Zenister 0]

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Exactly what issue are you confused about. Starting point.

actually i'm not 'confused' about any issue relating to divinity. although i really do wonder why people chose to look for God in the writings of Man instead of looking for him with their own senses through their own direct experience?

God doesn’t hide and you don’t need an intermediary, or an interpreter, no matter how often your priest says you do...he's only protecting his job...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pajarito 0]

I thought we were talking about historical accuracy. Attached is part of a very good study that I read concerning this. I found it very interesting.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Gee, your fire and brimstone approch kinda sounds like a fanatical one.....a very similar one used by other religions to commit atrocities (some here in the US).

Seriously, if your God is the right one, and you are a spokesperson for that deity....I wouldn't want any part of it.

Think about how you come off to others if you're so serious in your mission to convert the world, cause I'm not getting a message of tolerance here.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[stuffit 0]

Do you attend church weekly and if so what do you get from it? (Please dont give me some spiritual high and mighty answer. Just tell me why you really do it)

[airdweller 0]

> Believe, in whatever you wish, and suffer the consequences <

In the Christian faith, God is the only one that can judge other men. Seems a little arrogant to try and do Gods job.

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"From the mightiest pharaoh to the lowliest peasant,
who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" C. Montgomery Burns

[pajarito 0]

I agree totally with this part of your last statement..."God doesn’t hide and you don’t need an intermediary, or an interpreter, no matter how often your priest says you do..."

[chuteless 1]

If you think this is fire and brimstone, you aint seen nothing yet.

I dont think you'll have to wait too long. This old world is on its last legs.

Bill Cole

[ianmdrennan 2]

Let me know how it turns out. You people have had your "end of the world" story since I was a kid...gee...hasn't happened yet.....and seeing as you're privy to such important information, maybe you can give me the winning lotto numbers while you're at it?

I know I can never teach you to think for yourself, so to try and continue any form of discussion with you is hopeless. You're free to believe what you will, I think that's a great thing, unfortunately I also think it's tremendously sad that many people will never experiance your rapture because you've done nothing to bring your faith forward in a good light.

You do more damage than good for your faith. If you were so serious about it, I'd think you'd place more effort in your presentation.

Oh yeah...and thanks for making my point.

EDITED: For spelling

Performance Designs Factory Team

[pajarito 0]

There are different approaches to this. Some that people are more responsive to than others. I hate to see this turn into just a shouting match although I believe that happened already a long time ago in this forum.

[airdweller 0]

I haven't seen any capital letters used

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"From the mightiest pharaoh to the lowliest peasant,
who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" C. Montgomery Burns

[pajarito 0]

No caps but it sure felt like it was getting hotter in here.

[billvon 2,998]

>I can provide evidence to back up my case that the Bible is reliably
>transmitted and historically accurate.

?? it's hard to square the literal historical truths in the bible with our knowledge of cosmology, geology, paleontology, physics, medicine and biology. That's not to say it's full of lies - the people who wrote it wrote the best truth they could get their hands on at the time. I've seen some people who really torture science to try to make it conform to the bible's view of history, but such exercises are pretty futile. It's an axiom of science that you can't make science fit what you wish the facts to be, and if you try, you invalidate your hypothesis.

Also, when you study it, you see that it's a compilation of a great many authors, languages and styles. Some older books of the 'bible' have been discarded. Some language is in a form we no longer get, or no longer have the cultural references to understand. This inevitably results in translation errors. One error (a scary one) was a translation of a hebrew text in which "young woman" was translated in some places as "maid" and some places as "virgin."

But that doesn't mean the bible is wrong, any more than Newton's laws of motion are wrong even if his theory on gravitation wasn't quite right. He was still a brilliant guy, and his Principia is not invalidated by Einstein's work.

It is often said that scientists don't "destroy" old theories and old explanations; indeed the only way they can reach new heights of understanding is to stand upon the shoulders of giants. The older work serves as a strong foundation on which to base one's research. The bible is no different - a strong statement of law, a moral guide, a history of several religions and a guide to enlightenment that is as useful today as it ever was. That doesn't mean it's 100% 'correct' nor does it need to be to fulfill its purpose, which is to provide guidance to those who need it.

>It's easy to do it your own way, make up your own rules, and not be
> accountable to anyone. I do seek wisdom for myself and do not
> have a blind faith.

Saying that having your own morality is "easy" makes me think that you are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing - making unfounded assumptions about what other people believe. There are as many paths to enlightenment as there are people. Some work better than others. Not all are found in a book.

[pajarito 0]

I just see lots of criticism going in both directions with no real emphasis on specifics. A conclusion will be hard to reach that way. Although, I'm sure arriving at a conclusion will be near impossible anyway.

[Zenister 0]

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I thought we were talking about historical accuracy. Attached is part of a very good study that I read concerning this. I found it very interesting.

your kidding right?

please dont tell me your accepting that undergraduate level essay as proof of historical documentation. You really really need to study the issue more in depth if that’s what your basing your assertions on..there are so many blatant fallacies, out right falsehoods and self referenced 'facts' in that essay it's ludicrous to look at it as a 'historical' analysis.

Try again when you have FACTS that weren’t created by believers for consumption by the ignorant mass.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pccoder 0]

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If you think this is fire and brimstone, you aint seen nothing yet.

I dont think you'll have to wait too long. This old world is on its last legs.

Bill Cole

That seems kind of like a weak response to the question. I can make statements about how we ain't seen nothing yet too. Oh, never mind, I don't want to get into this relegious discussion.

But something else, the movie was really not all that good, had alot of gore. But didn't really offer anything interesting that we haven't already heard, and certainly wasn't "moving" or anything like that, all the crap I keep hearing in the media, it's because a bunch of old lady's are going to see it who don't usually sit through "Full Metal Jacket" so they think this movie is horrific. Get real, everyone was barbbaric back then.

PcCoder.net

[pajarito 0]

What research have you done and what would you suggest? It sounded like you didn't refute anything but with your opinionated comments.