pajarito 0 #226 March 9, 2004 If you're scared...say "scared." I'm kidding... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blahr 0 #227 March 9, 2004 QuoteIf you're scared...say "scared." I'm kidding... OK...I just wish I knew what it meant Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #228 March 9, 2004 I often shake my head at "Religious Debates"... there should hardly be any such thing. Many times, people argue and argue without ever realising that they share many a similar point. Zenni, just because "Karma" is not a "Christian" term, does not mean it is lost on us. Christians, by nature, do not subscribe to the theory of reincarnation but so long as you mention it and Karma, it is important that you realise they are two different things. Karma is what tells you "What goes around, comes around" and Christians say: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". We understand Karma, and without ever uttering the word, we spread it's concept all over saying that YOU will be happier and YOU will be better off if YOU see value in helping/healing/comforting/loving OTHERS. As far as reincarnation? True you do not force upon me, the fact that I will come back as a swine... but on the other side of the "what happens when we die?" coin, Christians are no longer pushing "You are going to hell if you do not find Christ". Humans know nothing of the afterlife, we can share conflicting opinions but fundamentally, each religion dictates how one should live their current life. Everything else you say is simply Bashing.. I don't understand you motives in doing so. You can't deny the existance of SIN. I'm afraid you are stuck on terminology, saying SIN is a Christian term and does not apply to me. I'm sorry, but I'll bet my last dollar that you have sinned during your life to date and that you will sin again before your last day. It is how you deal with your personal mistakes that make all the difference. If you are worried about being reincarnated, for example, into a lower life form for living a shady, imoral life, than are you not also worried about your sins? Another thing: Christians say Jesus "died for our sins" and you say "No, he died for YOUR sins."... Hmmm, isn't that like saying "No, my buddy jumped on that grenade to save YOUR skin." when you were among those within it's blast radius? Long shot, I know... but I'm an analogy man. Forgive the long post, and I hope you have read it all open-minded. My simple point is that when someone tells you that Christ died for you, you should not take offense to it. It is not an offensive thing to say or do... I don't preach: "You'll find out when the trumpets sound" and I don't think any Christian is doing their faith a favor by doing so but at the very least. Be open-minded in a discussion about personal faith. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #229 March 9, 2004 a non-christian probably isn't even going to pick up on the stepping-on-snake thing, if they're not familiar with Genesis. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #230 March 9, 2004 Quote You can't deny the existance of SIN. I'm afraid you are stuck on terminology, saying SIN is a Christian term and does not apply to me. I'm sorry, but I'll bet my last dollar that you have sinned during your life to date and that you will sin again before your last day. It is how you deal with your personal mistakes that make all the difference. If you are worried about being reincarnated, for example, into a lower life form for living a shady, imoral life, than are you not also worried about your sins? Another thing: Christians say Jesus "died for our sins" and you say "No, he died for YOUR sins."... Hmmm, isn't that like saying "No, my buddy jumped on that grenade to save YOUR skin." when you were among those within it's blast radius? Long shot, I know... but I'm an analogy man. cool!! go trade in all your dollars now for jump tickets I don’t deny anything. Sin is a christian construct, a christian concept that you hang the fundamental beliefs of your faith on. No i do not Sin. Nor will I ever. I would have to accept the tenets of your faith in order say that i have. Sin carries the implication of guilt. I am not and have never been a sinner. You chose to accept the burden of Sin when you accept your faith. I'm not basing at all. I am tired of being accused of killing your carpenter. I didnt, and suffer no guilt because of it. Nor am i (or any of my hypothetical ancestors) guilty of eating your apple or being tossed out of paradise because of that belief. Therefore there was nothing (for me, or any other non-christian who is following their belief faithfully) for your savior to die for, nothing he could possibly 'redeem' me for, his death in no way affects my Karma, or my relationship to the divine. It doesnt work that way in the first place. Your mythos only has meaning to you. I dont attempt to apply my beliefs to your life, and i would be ever so grateful (and we could leave off with a number of these discussions) if you would not apply yours to me and mine. They just dont fit. your also distorting Karma for the purpose of applying it to your belief structure, which is fine if you wish to try to use it that way, but really loses its meaning when taken so out of context, just as it would if i were to start referring to my life as a sinner or as saved without accepting the rest of your belief system. its pointless. context provides meaning. I do not need to be 'saved'. I was never lost, never separated from God in the first place. There is no grenade.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #231 March 9, 2004 There is one statement that Karl Marx made that amongs the rest of his philosophical rumblings makes a lot of sense: "Religion is the opium of masses" How true it sounds today. Our global conflicts shifted from political to religious. Look at us coming back to the middle ages. Its the Muslims vs. Christians, Christians vs. Muslims, everybody vs. Jews (for some reason not obvious to me), the Jews vs. everybody (the reason for that escapes me too) and all this because the "believers" can't even understand what they preach and follow. Religion has become the outlet for animalistic agression. Disgusting.jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #232 March 9, 2004 Please try and appreciate that this is exactly what I mean when I say you could be hung up on terminology. QuoteI don’t deny anything. Sin is a christian construct, a christian concept that you hang the fundamental beliefs of your faith on... I would have to accept the tenets of your faith in order say that i have. Sin is but a word. The origin of the word means "to miss the mark," as in archery. What it means to sin is "to miss the mark" with respect to what God would expect of us. When you do something that would not be pleasing to God, you commit a sin. QuoteNo i do not Sin. Nor will I ever.. Sin carries the implication of guilt. I am not and have never been a sinner. Now, you may not even beleive that there is a God -and that's well within your right- but as a human, you cannot say that you have never done anything against his will. His will is impossible to follow at all times. Thus the reason we say that all men are sinners. The guilt that it implicates... well, that's in the beholder. You do not have to feel remorse to have done something wrong. QuoteYou chose to accept the burden of Sin when you accept your faith. This is a terminology issue. I accept that I am not perfect. And that my imperfections mean, I can do bad things. I DO feel guilty when I wrong someone. I feel the need to make it right. This is the Christian way but obviously, you do not have to be Christian to feel the same. QuoteI'm not basing at all. I am tired of being accused of killing your carpenter. This, for me, is the most disconcerning part of your post. Saying that "Christ died for our sins" is not the same as saying "We killed Christ". I don't care who tells you it is... it's not. Back to the grenade in the crowd. If someone jumps on it to save the crowd.. are the members of said crowd 'guilty' for his death? Or are they simply Alive and owing some tribute to the deceased hero? My understanding of the concept of Karma is not flawed. My Karma ran over my dogma remember? hehe, that's why you'll not hear me asking you to go to church... I wouldn't have it... 'cause there are many parts of the Christian doctrine that I disagree with. The fact that all men and women, by nature, do things which contradict Gods very real desires is not one of them. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #233 March 9, 2004 In reference to: "The grenade in the crowd analogy." This is a bad comparison. You said it yourself. All people sin against God. Jesus died for the sins of all people in order for reconciliation. Therefore, all are guilty. Only one person would be responsible for throwing the grenade into a crowd. In that scenario, the crowd wouldn’t be guilty, as you said, and would just be the beneficiary of the good deed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #234 March 9, 2004 For those who are interested. [/url]http://www.thewayofthemaster.com[url] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,994 #235 March 9, 2004 >No i do not Sin. Nor will I ever. I would have to accept the tenets of >your faith in order say that i have. I'd say that you have to accept your _own_ tenets of morality to be able to sin. The definition of sinning is breaking moral or religious rules. While it's true that you can essentially disregard religious laws, it would be difficult to claim that you have no moral rules. Most people have standards of morality they try to live up to. They don't sexually assault women because it's wrong, not because they fear getting caught. (i.e. a good date rape drug does not make sexual assault OK.) That's a moral position. If someone violates that moral position, say they get drunk and do something that goes against their moral code, that's a sin (by the dictionary definition.) You don't need god to have morals. Most religions supply a pre-packaged set of morals that don't require too much thought; do X Y and Z and you'll go to heaven. You can also make them up on your own, although this requires some thought. But either set can be as valid as the other, and since we're human, we will occasionally break them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #236 March 9, 2004 QuoteIn reference to: "The grenade in the crowd analogy." This is a bad comparison. You said it yourself. All people sin against God. Jesus died for the sins of all people in order for reconciliation. Therefore, all are guilty. The analogy is meant to attack the word "Guilt" as it is presented by Zennister. You are to focus on the act of self-sacrifise rather than the act of trying to kill a crowd of people. We are all tainted by original sin, that part of us that compells us to act against his will. But the Christ was offered up by the Lord for us. One does not have to feel guilt for his death... Simply gratitude. Like the gratitude I would feel for the one who jumped on the grenade. Born in 1979, I most certainly do not feel guilty for Jesus' death. I am however, born with the original sin, for which he offered his life to absolve. What I feel is gratitude. Controling the masses using guilt is wrong, nowhere does it read in the Bible that we are to live our lives in constant shame of the fact that we killed our saviour. He was put here to die... to bring in the new covenant. QuoteOnly one person would be responsible for throwing the grenade into a crowd. In that scenario, the crowd wouldn’t be guilty, as you said, and would just be the beneficiary of the good deed. Correct that the only guilty party would be the thrower. However, we've seen many a similar case and we all know that many among the survivors would fee guilt. That is the nature of my analogy. It points out that it is wrong to simply "feel guilty". You are not "guilty" because of original sin. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #237 March 9, 2004 I agree. I misunderstood before. Sorry about that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #238 March 9, 2004 Quote I am however, born with the original sin, for which he offered his life to absolve. What I feel is gratitude. i was not. Nor was anyone else who does not follow your faith. Your 'sacrifice' is meaningless and unnecessary for those of another path. this is a christian construct. as is Sin in the definition used by christian literature and priests, not the dictionary definition adopted by secular society. Your religion attempts to define God's will, and so creates its own definitions of Sin, these do not apply to those on other paths. Anymore than breaking a German tax law would apply to someone living and occupying the US. if you wish to redefine sin as breaking a personal moral code then we are having a different discussion entirely. different states, different paths. same issue applies to Karma. there is a religious definition and a secular defintion. the distinctions are important. Your mythos applies only to those of your faith. By your religious definition i am not a Sinner, I have never been and never will be, your religious constructs are meaningless to anyone who is not a christian. You can continue to assert that it applies to everyone and everything, but that does not make it true, it is only christian arrogance and condescension, not truth for those not of your faith. bumper sticker clichés aside, if you think what you do in THIS life is Karma affects THIS life, your understanding is completely flawed. Again there are religious definitions, and there are simpler, secular definitions...in order to accept Karma you MUST also accept reincarnation. Do you? btw..to continue your analogy, according to the myths of your religion, your god is the one who 'threw the grenade' in the first place... there is no grenade.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #239 March 9, 2004 Damn. People all worked up about a movie. Gives them something to do, I guess. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #240 March 9, 2004 Dude...I hope you do better in your next life than a nasty, slobbering, dumb, cow that hasn't got sense but to eat grass in a field all day and shit on itself. Oh wait...that's considered to be the best. My bad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #241 March 9, 2004 Quotethere is no grenade. Wrong... there is no spoon! Quotebtw..to continue your analogy, according to the myths of your religion, your god is the one who 'threw the grenade' in the first place... Well, no... not at all. If you had read the "myths" (I prefer "parabols") but hey, 6 of one.... God planted a field of wheat, and in the night, the devil snuck through the field, sowing shaft seeds (shaft: weeds which closely resemble wheat, but are completely empty inside and stand much taller) Rather than destroy the entire field to start anew, it was decided that all the plants would be allowed to grow. He knew the weeds would choke out some of the good wheat but come harvest time, he would be able to seperate the shaft from the true good wheat. God did not throw the grenade... but he acted in the heart of the one who threw himself upon it. ***(as an aside, his suggestion that the wheat be put up in the barn rafters and that the shaft be burnt in a hole was where we all got the stupid idea stuck in our heads that 'heaven' is high up and that you burn in 'hell') Nick My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crzjp20 0 #242 March 9, 2004 "this is a christian construct. as is Sin in the definition used by christian literature and priests, not the dictionary definition adopted by secular society." sin by defination is simply falling short of the mark. It is an archery term, sin was the distance between where the arrow hit the target and the bullseye. Anytihng short of bulseye was concidered to be sin. Im not going to argue with you, it not my styler... excpet with politics... but do you think you have never done anyting that was wrong. you never lied, never stole a piece of candy, never hit your little brother, never snuck out of your house to get a little from your girlfriend, never got totaly wasted and got in a fight? those things are not perfection, and in return they are sin. I know i have done these things so yeah i have sinned. Liek i said i am not trying to arguee here and i adont want to get you all mad and worked up, so keep a sence of hummer and its all good. blue SKys-------------------------------------------------- Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #243 March 9, 2004 nioce... that kind of ignorant, arrogant, condescendtion is exactly why i have so little respect for the majority of christians...you simply have no respect at all for anyone elses belief.. oh well your God will judge you for it i suppose.... hope its painful ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #244 March 9, 2004 I read that as a joke Zeni... and shows that he is knowlegeable on the topic. "Hope you turn into a cow!... oops, that don't work... cow=highest life form" ?? I could be wrong... but I don't think there was an attack made here. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #245 March 9, 2004 your example is a parabol and of course has no biblical backing, besides your god destroyed the world and everyone except his chosen family in the flood remember?? how humanity got tossed out of the garden of eden and why is a myth... ps. who created your satan?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #246 March 9, 2004 Um... in a way, he's right...I think.... didn't God create the Devil? I mean, Lucifer's supposed to be a fallen angel, and God created the Angels, so wouldn't that mean he created the Devil by default? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crzjp20 0 #247 March 9, 2004 Quoteps. who created your satan? this is a deap subject that can go so deap that it will make your head hurt. Satan created satin. He was an angle and he was hevenly, then he decided he wanted to be god and turned against him. In return he took the power of his angelic form and started to use them against God. i can go much deaper but i have boco tests this week and need to study oh wait edit: let me add this did God creat the angles? Yes, but they have a choice just like we do. So satin choice evil and darkness, so that is in a nut shell why i say he created himself, casue he knew the conciquences of his actions, and he still made that choice Blue skys-------------------------------------------------- Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #248 March 9, 2004 he didn't say he'd never done anything wrong... however, many non-christians, instead of believing that mistakes are something to be repented for and to do penance for, view mistakes simply as learning opportunities... they take the lesson and move on, without the 'guilt' aspect. Apologies are in order to any individuals who were wronged, but apologies to a deity are usually not seen as necessary, nor is asking for forgiveness from anyone other than the human beings involved. Its two ways of looking at the same issue. many non-christian religions don't have the concept of sin. Basically, you two are arguing semantics. What you call a sin, he'd call a mistake to learn from. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #249 March 9, 2004 QuoteI read that as a joke Zeni... and shows that he is knowlegeable on the topic. actually it shows his ignorance. he's gettting his religions completely confused, but then i generally expect from most american christians who get all their answers from a nice little book, and the platitudes their church gives them...no individual thought or effort required.. have fun guys i'm done when you've spent as some time actually looking for answers to the really important questions and can talk intelligently about all the world's religions and the various experiences of divinity in each without resorting to ignorant misconceptions and tired cliché’s, I'll be happy to have a nice conversation with you about them and your interpretation of each... until then enjoy your faith, safe and ignorant of all you do not know.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #250 March 9, 2004 God created all things. He also created Satan. Satan did not create himself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
