XWuffo 0 #276 March 10, 2004 QuoteThis is a great place for me to sneak in an extra post to increase my numbers where it might not be noticed. In a big, stupid thread like this!!!! Quote Blahr...........what a coolidea ! It is such a stoopid thread....As we in Africa know - "If you're going to be dumb - you'd better be tough." - Tonto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Luv2Fall 0 #277 March 10, 2004 Jay - may I suggest two books to you if you ever get the chance to read them? These books are authored by Maurice S. Rawlings, M.D. who has many years experience and research vested in the subject. The books, "To Hell and Back" and "Beyond Death's Door" puts many things into perspective. "To Hell and Back" is a little more comprehensive in that this cardiologist had about 20 more years experience................probably the better read. We pretty much believe the same thing so I though you would find these books to be of interest. Amazon.com is a great source for finding these used and finding them inexpensive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #278 March 10, 2004 Quoteyour example is a parabol and of course has no biblical backing Hmmm. A lot has transpired since I left this thread last eve... I'm surprised that nobody has provided this in my abscence. Matthew 13: 24-42 Jesus presented another parable to them saying "The Kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his mean were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him 'Sir did you not sow good seed in your in your field? How then does it have tares?' And he said to them 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him 'Do you want us, then to go and gather them up?' But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the weat into my barn.'" My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #279 March 10, 2004 Thanks for the suggestions. I'll look them up. I'm trying to make it through a book by Norman Geisler and Ron Brooks right now called "When Skeptics Ask." It's also very interesting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Luv2Fall 0 #280 March 10, 2004 Sounds interesting...........add it to my list. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #281 March 10, 2004 Quote besides your god destroyed the world and everyone except his chosen family in the flood remember?? and Quotehow humanity got tossed out of the garden of eden and why is a myth... These are both from the old testament... but I'll bite. I don't deny the flood, and the reasons for it are well explained. He also apparently destroyed the the sodomites of Sodom and Gamora with fire and Brimestone raining from the sky. There is however a large difference between the God of the old testament and the God of the New. The God of the old testament was a vengeful one (An eye for an eye), he saw that he his people failed to obey his will and destroyed them. That was the flow of the operating system he had in place. The God of the new testament is a forgiving one. He realises that we are incapable of perfection and provided we make efforts to right our wrongs, he is happy. There is a new setup, a new operating system. We all know that when you intall a new operating system, you will need to reboot correct? This was Jesus' task. Jesus was put through 'the system' to reboot it. He was put on earth as a human, died for sins, he was put through hell and it all crashed... To bring in the new covenant. How humanity got tossed out of the garden may very well be a myth, but like many other myths, is told for a reason and holds very real lessons/morals. God gave us free will. It is not enough to love your neighboor if all there is is love. So, he created Love, he created Hate and most importantly, he created FREE WILL. We say unto the Lord "Thy will be done.", but do you not see that this has no meaning if we did not have a will of our own? One that may contradict his at times? My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #282 March 10, 2004 In reference to: "God gave us free will. It is not enough to love your neighbor if all there is love. So, he created Love, he created Hate and most importantly, he created FREE WILL. We say unto the Lord "Thy will be done.", but do you not see that this has no meaning if we did not have a will of our own? One that may contradict his at times?" *** Yes, but at the same time, God is in control of all things. He knew you before he made you. He knows your spirit. He knows what you're going to do even if you have the free will to reject him. I believe there is a duality in this matter but leaning in God's direction. Like I said before, Man, in his natural state, will always lean towards sin (i.e. We’re dead in our sin. What can a dead man do without God’s help?). If God chooses to reveal himself to someone and Jesus is accepted as Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit enters the heart and, if a sincere decision was made, the person will feel the push towards righteousness and doing good. He has a new nature in Christ. That's not to say that good deeds will get you anywhere in the eyes of God. It's all about Jesus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #283 March 10, 2004 Quoteis Yahweh omnipotent and omniscient? if so how could Satan make any choice other than the one he was created to make?? Well, honestly, where's the fun in that? The creation can only be summed up to an experiment. And what cooler experiment could there be than to create a mirror image that will host both good and evil and watch them duke it out until the end of time? This comes down to free will again. This Satan is no different than you or me. He was created by God yes, but with the free will to decide. He decided to take the responsibility of overseeing the dark... an important task I might add. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #284 March 10, 2004 Oooooooo....kkkkkkkkkkk......... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #285 March 10, 2004 Might I suggest another good read for you? Holly Blood Hooly Grail by Michael Baigent. It touches on many great topics concerning the creation of man and the sacrifise of The Lords son Jesus. One interesting chapter speaks of an old religious sect called the Cathcars (sp? - I'll have to go home and check). Who fundamentally beleived that creation itself was an evil act. To create something where there was nothing before was a presumptuous or arrogant way to destroy the order that was... in nothingness. They embrassed their own dark sides in a manner of speaking thinking that if they were created in Gods image, that God himself had a dark side. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #286 March 10, 2004 QuoteOooooooo....kkkkkkkkkkk......... Hehee, what was that directed at? My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #287 March 10, 2004 what I don't get is when people point out how different God is from the Old Testament to the New. This is one thing about the Bible that doesn't make sense to me. Isn't it the same God?? Why the huge differences in teaching and behavior? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #288 March 10, 2004 QuoteQuoteyour example is a parabol and of course has no biblical backing Hmmm. A lot has transpired since I left this thread last eve... I'm surprised that nobody has provided this in my abscence. Matthew 13: 24-42 Jesus presented another parable to them saying "The Kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his mean were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him 'Sir did you not sow good seed in your in your field? How then does it have tares?' And he said to them 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him 'Do you want us, then to go and gather them up?' But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the weat into my barn.'" care to point to the passages in OT that support Jesus argument? now compare God's actions in the OT with this statement? i guess killing them in the all in the flood doesnt count?? i love christian contradictions...they are soo much fun..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #289 March 10, 2004 QuoteQuote besides your god destroyed the world and everyone except his chosen family in the flood remember?? and Quotehow humanity got tossed out of the garden of eden and why is a myth... These are both from the old testament... but I'll bite. I don't deny the flood, and the reasons for it are well explained. He also apparently destroyed the the sodomites of Sodom and Gamora with fire and Brimestone raining from the sky. There is however a large difference between the God of the old testament and the God of the New. The God of the old testament was a vengeful one (An eye for an eye), he saw that he his people failed to obey his will and destroyed them. That was the flow of the operating system he had in place. The God of the new testament is a forgiving one. He realises that we are incapable of perfection and provided we make efforts to right our wrongs, he is happy. There is a new setup, a new operating system. We all know that when you intall a new operating system, you will need to reboot correct? How humanity got tossed out of the garden may very well be a myth, but like many other myths, is told for a reason and holds very real lessons/morals. God gave us free will. It is not enough to love your neighboor if all there is is love. So, he created Love, he created Hate and most importantly, he created FREE WILL. We say unto the Lord "Thy will be done.", but do you not see that this has no meaning if we did not have a will of our own? One that may contradict his at times? ah so you have two gods now?? and he has human emotions? and he changes his mind?? so much for the O & O... btw character analysis indicates you actually have closer to 6 'gods' all with distinct personality conflicts..happens when you have a text written by multiple authors and repeatedly edited...but i guess you'll still say its the divine word of god and can not be flawed?? hmmm perhaps the word of man is more obvious...he does after all create gods in his own image... the paradox is that your god cant be omnipotent, omniscient and the prime mover behind all creation IF man (and satan) has free will. And of course if man and satan are following the plan of your god (as created and foreseen) how do you define evil? Does not everything in creation follow the will of your lord?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #290 March 10, 2004 Quotewhat I don't get is when people point out how different God is from the Old Testament to the New. This is one thing about the Bible that doesn't make sense to me. Isn't it the same God?? Why the huge differences in teaching and behavior? Yeah, a popular cause of confusion. This is what I have been trying to point out however: it was the same God... but a new covenant. That is what is most important. Differences in behaviour? Yes! Differences in teaching? Not really. When I was a child, my parents may have spanked me when I did something wrong. Today, I am grown. I may still err at any given time. My parents no longer use corporal punishment... yet, are they not the same parents? Do they not wish the same things for me that they did when I was younger? Call God the mother/father of us all. Obviously, his people have evolved since the dawn. We are not the same people. Refer to my 'reboot' analogy and Jesus came at a point in time to bring in the new covenant. He is the one that went through hell, absolving the 'original sin' and changing the way it all works. It was part of the devine plan to Change the covenant at a time where we were ready to accept more responsibility. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #291 March 10, 2004 Quote ah so you have two gods now?? This is covered in my post to Nightingale. One God, two covenants. As your children grown up, you extend their curfew, you raise their allowance, you stop telling them what is right and wrong, you begin to trust that they have a basic understanding, hope they make the right choices, and step in when required. We are Gods Children. This is exactly what he has done for us. Quoteand he has human emotions? and he changes his mind?? Yes, and yes. Quote so much for the O & O... Let me ask you how All seeing and All knowing (O & O) translate to flawlessness? The truth is, it doesn't. And the truth is, nowhere can you read, old testament or new, that God is whithout flaw. Are you trying to comprehend or trying to poke holes? Because it is plainly writen that God was disapointed (human emotion) and it is clearly writen that he wished to start anew with Noah and the Arc (Changes his mind). Quotebtw character analysis indicates you actually have closer to 6 'gods' all with distinct personality conflicts Character analysis of me? Or of God? Character analysis of God indicates that he has personality conflicts just like you and me. That he is troubled by decisions he has to make just like you and me. That he may know you before you are.. but that he is truly watching you unfold you life and hoping that you will see him and come to him. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #292 March 10, 2004 interesting...you know the greeks had gods with human emotions too.. and by your own religious texts your god is psychotic... not anything i'd wish to worship...and i thought your savior was 'perfect'?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 7 8 9 10 11 12 Next Page 12 of 12 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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Luv2Fall 0 #277 March 10, 2004 Jay - may I suggest two books to you if you ever get the chance to read them? These books are authored by Maurice S. Rawlings, M.D. who has many years experience and research vested in the subject. The books, "To Hell and Back" and "Beyond Death's Door" puts many things into perspective. "To Hell and Back" is a little more comprehensive in that this cardiologist had about 20 more years experience................probably the better read. We pretty much believe the same thing so I though you would find these books to be of interest. Amazon.com is a great source for finding these used and finding them inexpensive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #278 March 10, 2004 Quoteyour example is a parabol and of course has no biblical backing Hmmm. A lot has transpired since I left this thread last eve... I'm surprised that nobody has provided this in my abscence. Matthew 13: 24-42 Jesus presented another parable to them saying "The Kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his mean were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him 'Sir did you not sow good seed in your in your field? How then does it have tares?' And he said to them 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him 'Do you want us, then to go and gather them up?' But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the weat into my barn.'" My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #279 March 10, 2004 Thanks for the suggestions. I'll look them up. I'm trying to make it through a book by Norman Geisler and Ron Brooks right now called "When Skeptics Ask." It's also very interesting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luv2Fall 0 #280 March 10, 2004 Sounds interesting...........add it to my list. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #281 March 10, 2004 Quote besides your god destroyed the world and everyone except his chosen family in the flood remember?? and Quotehow humanity got tossed out of the garden of eden and why is a myth... These are both from the old testament... but I'll bite. I don't deny the flood, and the reasons for it are well explained. He also apparently destroyed the the sodomites of Sodom and Gamora with fire and Brimestone raining from the sky. There is however a large difference between the God of the old testament and the God of the New. The God of the old testament was a vengeful one (An eye for an eye), he saw that he his people failed to obey his will and destroyed them. That was the flow of the operating system he had in place. The God of the new testament is a forgiving one. He realises that we are incapable of perfection and provided we make efforts to right our wrongs, he is happy. There is a new setup, a new operating system. We all know that when you intall a new operating system, you will need to reboot correct? This was Jesus' task. Jesus was put through 'the system' to reboot it. He was put on earth as a human, died for sins, he was put through hell and it all crashed... To bring in the new covenant. How humanity got tossed out of the garden may very well be a myth, but like many other myths, is told for a reason and holds very real lessons/morals. God gave us free will. It is not enough to love your neighboor if all there is is love. So, he created Love, he created Hate and most importantly, he created FREE WILL. We say unto the Lord "Thy will be done.", but do you not see that this has no meaning if we did not have a will of our own? One that may contradict his at times? My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #282 March 10, 2004 In reference to: "God gave us free will. It is not enough to love your neighbor if all there is love. So, he created Love, he created Hate and most importantly, he created FREE WILL. We say unto the Lord "Thy will be done.", but do you not see that this has no meaning if we did not have a will of our own? One that may contradict his at times?" *** Yes, but at the same time, God is in control of all things. He knew you before he made you. He knows your spirit. He knows what you're going to do even if you have the free will to reject him. I believe there is a duality in this matter but leaning in God's direction. Like I said before, Man, in his natural state, will always lean towards sin (i.e. We’re dead in our sin. What can a dead man do without God’s help?). If God chooses to reveal himself to someone and Jesus is accepted as Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit enters the heart and, if a sincere decision was made, the person will feel the push towards righteousness and doing good. He has a new nature in Christ. That's not to say that good deeds will get you anywhere in the eyes of God. It's all about Jesus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #283 March 10, 2004 Quoteis Yahweh omnipotent and omniscient? if so how could Satan make any choice other than the one he was created to make?? Well, honestly, where's the fun in that? The creation can only be summed up to an experiment. And what cooler experiment could there be than to create a mirror image that will host both good and evil and watch them duke it out until the end of time? This comes down to free will again. This Satan is no different than you or me. He was created by God yes, but with the free will to decide. He decided to take the responsibility of overseeing the dark... an important task I might add. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #284 March 10, 2004 Oooooooo....kkkkkkkkkkk......... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #285 March 10, 2004 Might I suggest another good read for you? Holly Blood Hooly Grail by Michael Baigent. It touches on many great topics concerning the creation of man and the sacrifise of The Lords son Jesus. One interesting chapter speaks of an old religious sect called the Cathcars (sp? - I'll have to go home and check). Who fundamentally beleived that creation itself was an evil act. To create something where there was nothing before was a presumptuous or arrogant way to destroy the order that was... in nothingness. They embrassed their own dark sides in a manner of speaking thinking that if they were created in Gods image, that God himself had a dark side. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #286 March 10, 2004 QuoteOooooooo....kkkkkkkkkkk......... Hehee, what was that directed at? My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #287 March 10, 2004 what I don't get is when people point out how different God is from the Old Testament to the New. This is one thing about the Bible that doesn't make sense to me. Isn't it the same God?? Why the huge differences in teaching and behavior? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #288 March 10, 2004 QuoteQuoteyour example is a parabol and of course has no biblical backing Hmmm. A lot has transpired since I left this thread last eve... I'm surprised that nobody has provided this in my abscence. Matthew 13: 24-42 Jesus presented another parable to them saying "The Kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his mean were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him 'Sir did you not sow good seed in your in your field? How then does it have tares?' And he said to them 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him 'Do you want us, then to go and gather them up?' But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the weat into my barn.'" care to point to the passages in OT that support Jesus argument? now compare God's actions in the OT with this statement? i guess killing them in the all in the flood doesnt count?? i love christian contradictions...they are soo much fun..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #289 March 10, 2004 QuoteQuote besides your god destroyed the world and everyone except his chosen family in the flood remember?? and Quotehow humanity got tossed out of the garden of eden and why is a myth... These are both from the old testament... but I'll bite. I don't deny the flood, and the reasons for it are well explained. He also apparently destroyed the the sodomites of Sodom and Gamora with fire and Brimestone raining from the sky. There is however a large difference between the God of the old testament and the God of the New. The God of the old testament was a vengeful one (An eye for an eye), he saw that he his people failed to obey his will and destroyed them. That was the flow of the operating system he had in place. The God of the new testament is a forgiving one. He realises that we are incapable of perfection and provided we make efforts to right our wrongs, he is happy. There is a new setup, a new operating system. We all know that when you intall a new operating system, you will need to reboot correct? How humanity got tossed out of the garden may very well be a myth, but like many other myths, is told for a reason and holds very real lessons/morals. God gave us free will. It is not enough to love your neighboor if all there is is love. So, he created Love, he created Hate and most importantly, he created FREE WILL. We say unto the Lord "Thy will be done.", but do you not see that this has no meaning if we did not have a will of our own? One that may contradict his at times? ah so you have two gods now?? and he has human emotions? and he changes his mind?? so much for the O & O... btw character analysis indicates you actually have closer to 6 'gods' all with distinct personality conflicts..happens when you have a text written by multiple authors and repeatedly edited...but i guess you'll still say its the divine word of god and can not be flawed?? hmmm perhaps the word of man is more obvious...he does after all create gods in his own image... the paradox is that your god cant be omnipotent, omniscient and the prime mover behind all creation IF man (and satan) has free will. And of course if man and satan are following the plan of your god (as created and foreseen) how do you define evil? Does not everything in creation follow the will of your lord?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #290 March 10, 2004 Quotewhat I don't get is when people point out how different God is from the Old Testament to the New. This is one thing about the Bible that doesn't make sense to me. Isn't it the same God?? Why the huge differences in teaching and behavior? Yeah, a popular cause of confusion. This is what I have been trying to point out however: it was the same God... but a new covenant. That is what is most important. Differences in behaviour? Yes! Differences in teaching? Not really. When I was a child, my parents may have spanked me when I did something wrong. Today, I am grown. I may still err at any given time. My parents no longer use corporal punishment... yet, are they not the same parents? Do they not wish the same things for me that they did when I was younger? Call God the mother/father of us all. Obviously, his people have evolved since the dawn. We are not the same people. Refer to my 'reboot' analogy and Jesus came at a point in time to bring in the new covenant. He is the one that went through hell, absolving the 'original sin' and changing the way it all works. It was part of the devine plan to Change the covenant at a time where we were ready to accept more responsibility. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #291 March 10, 2004 Quote ah so you have two gods now?? This is covered in my post to Nightingale. One God, two covenants. As your children grown up, you extend their curfew, you raise their allowance, you stop telling them what is right and wrong, you begin to trust that they have a basic understanding, hope they make the right choices, and step in when required. We are Gods Children. This is exactly what he has done for us. Quoteand he has human emotions? and he changes his mind?? Yes, and yes. Quote so much for the O & O... Let me ask you how All seeing and All knowing (O & O) translate to flawlessness? The truth is, it doesn't. And the truth is, nowhere can you read, old testament or new, that God is whithout flaw. Are you trying to comprehend or trying to poke holes? Because it is plainly writen that God was disapointed (human emotion) and it is clearly writen that he wished to start anew with Noah and the Arc (Changes his mind). Quotebtw character analysis indicates you actually have closer to 6 'gods' all with distinct personality conflicts Character analysis of me? Or of God? Character analysis of God indicates that he has personality conflicts just like you and me. That he is troubled by decisions he has to make just like you and me. That he may know you before you are.. but that he is truly watching you unfold you life and hoping that you will see him and come to him. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #292 March 10, 2004 interesting...you know the greeks had gods with human emotions too.. and by your own religious texts your god is psychotic... not anything i'd wish to worship...and i thought your savior was 'perfect'?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
